stalling

[seacow]

i think stalling should also apply to builder.
if the remaining builder are unable to base, for example they are like mag or huntress or demo, they have no chance of killing titan or minion is they play really safe then it is stalling.
They tend to waste alot of titan time if they decide to stall which they can for example, demo wallbase, then nether or tp away and wall around ,rinse and repeat

[Burn]

No, this has been discussed before. It only takes 1-2 minutes to kill your average staller anyway. Titan can always leave if he has bad micro.

-Burn

[seacow]

Lies, if demo is burn, it will take 30minute GG

[Burn]

Lies, if demo is burn, it will take 30minute GG

Lies, if I am last builder, I'd just leave 'cause I don't want to die.

EDIT: Or, try to do some fancy shit for YT material, but usually fails due to millions of chain nuking minions.

-Burn

[seacow]

[spoiler=]"intentional stalling a losing game as titan and wasting everyone's time for more than 10 mins. The titan can be kicked if he does not kill a builder in 20 minutes time, and if 60% of the builders alive agree to having the titan kicked.
Stalling is defined as titan and minions not being able to win or no chance of killing any builders of they just played really safe."
Quote from rule:https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4&p=42212#p42212[/spoiler]
However the rule only implicate the titan side, which is unfair for the fact that builder is also capable of stalling.

It only takes 1-2 minutes to kill your average staller anyway.-Burn

This is a disputable fact.An exceptional case,example,we know that a demo wallbase is incapable or reduce ability of killing a titan . However we do know that it can take a huge amount of time to break it , thereby stalling.
therefore, it is inaccurate to say it that amount of time to kill your average staller, since i shown an exceptional case.

Titan can always leave if he has bad micro.-Burn

i think, conversely this would apply to builder, if titan is stalling and if the builder is unable to kill titan(i think the point you are trying to make, here is that if titan is unable to kill the staller wheb you mean titan have bad micro), then builder can always leave?

since neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning.

for the case i think most player are worry of, is the titan staying at mound , camps or hide around map and therefore not doing anything. I think unlike stalling, this fall into the realm of intentionally ruining of game, refusal game or excessive afking.

Thereby i propose that either abolish the stalling rule or apply it to builder as well, when the condition is right.

[Burn]

Here are the reasons why it doesn't apply to builder and titan:

1) Titan has the ability to stall forever.
2) Builders do not have the ability to stall forever.
3) The point of the titan is to get farmed and kill the builders. If the titan can do neither, then he will forfeit the game.
4) Builders get stronger with G.P. and will always have the ability to get stronger, but there is always a limit to how much you can do against a late game titan even with maxed merchant summons, everything.
5) Therefore, the titan has to be the one that kills everything, not vice versa. If the titan is not able to kill the builders in any way, shape or form, then the game will be a draw, since builders can't kill the titan either. This is why the stalling rule was implemented.
6) Builders are not able to stall forever, the use of eye of the oceans, wand of the wind, ward block and multiple roaming minions and a Demo's lumber capacity makes it obvious that a single builder does not have the capability to stall forever. This is why stalling for builders is not allowed.
7) It is boring as fuck for builders when titan is stalling.
8) It is not as boring if a builder stalls, titan is at least doing something.

It is however, bad etiquette to stall, both as a titan or a builder, but we're not going to go around punishing builders for something that is easily preventable.

-Burn

[seacow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkKj5ILv9PI
titan is seen being rushed by coalition effort of builder (late game)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvu0uxYdJsk
thank to burn, titan is rushed by one player (early game)

[seacow]

(1a)since neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning.
Neither builder nor titan is capable of stalling indefinitely, question is whether is it long enough.
1) is false, also do not mix up refusal to play to and stalling.
if you did not refute my original post, then a demo, indeed, can stall long enough.
3) are you worry that the conclusion will happen,titan will forfeit the game?
but since he is in stalling, he must be playing the game then he did not forfeit the game.
4)since the builder strength is limited, then the conclusion is that the titan will win,with the passage of time.
5)for the builder to win, the titan has to die, therefore the builder has to kill the titan. i disprove your statement.Therefore (1a)
6)inversely, the titan is not able to stall forever from 1)
7) Are you implying that the titan is toy of builder?
if the titan or builder is in the state of stalemate, therefore stall is not preventable
since you recognize it is bad etiquette to stall, both as a titan or a builder, the rule must therefore apply to builder as well.

[Burn]

(1a)since neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning.
Neither builder nor titan is capable of stalling indefinitely, question is whether is it long enough.
1) is false, also do not mix up refusal to play to and stalling.
if you did not refute my original post, then a demo, indeed, can stall long enough.
3) are you worry that the conclusion will happen,titan will forfeit the game?
but since he is in stalling, he must be playing the game then he did not forfeit the game.
4)since the builder strength is limited, then the conclusion is that the titan will win,with the passage of time.
5)for the builder to win, the titan has to die, therefore the builder has to kill the titan. i disprove your statement.Therefore (1a)
6)inversely, the titan is not able to stall forever from 1)
7) Are you implying that the titan is toy of builder?
if the titan or builder is in the state of stalemate, therefore stall is not preventable
since you recognize it is bad etiquette to stall, both as a titan or a builder, the rule must therefore apply to builder as well.

Seacow, right now you are just arguing just for the sake of arguing, which makes this debate pointless. Please form a single valid argument and stick to it so that we can have an actual debate. Let's put this scenario out here: So there's a quad base eurobase against a lvl 10 Demonicus with 5 level 5 minions that isn't able to successfully siege the base. You're saying that both are "stalling". This is an entirely new concept to me, I've never considered the builder to be the staller as well.

Now, to make my "points" clear, let me start off by saying that technically no games will be a stale-mate, but the game length will be prolonged so long that it'll venture into the "forever" category. I see that you don't take exaggeration well. Depending on the skill or patience of the builder or titan, one will always come out on top.

The way I see it, the builder's objective is to survive until the 3rd or 4th GP to win. If you think you can stay up until then, then I normally automatically give myself the game, and blame the titan for an incredibly boring game and wasting my time. Most of the time I'd just leave at the 2nd or 3rd GP if I knew titan was not going to break the base. If the titan is bad enough or hasn't got enough minions to kill me as Demo until the 3rd or 4th GP as struck, I'd think that I have won the game as well. I posted a suggestion here that is relevant to my case.

Now for the titan. My objective as titan is to kill all the builders. If I am not able to either chain nuke the builders or siege the base properly, I'd just conduct a minion rush, as stalling the game will only make the builders stronger. I do not intend to make the game boring for the builders, since it is much more entertaining for the titan when stalling.

Also, I mentioned that is bad etiquette to stall, but it's also bad etiquette to item jump bases or nature spear rushing the titan, but that doesn't make it ban-able.

TL;DR Builder's objective is to survive, titan's objective is to kill the builders and "chase" them off his island. Builders aren't stalling to build a base or flee from the titan, as the builder's sole objective is to survive.

-Burn

[seacow]

i did,
"since neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning."
this has always be the main motif of this argument, the new claim you made is argument on this basis.

[seacow]

As your scenario,
since the titan is unable to kill the baser, AND the baser is unable to kill the titan, therefore the state of the game is neither winning nor losing . Then the current game state must be a state of stalemate.
if titan is unable to kill builder in given time, it is stalling
builder unable to kill titan in given time or it is stalling.
then we have,
if neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning.
as with your scenario
depending on its item and builder's tower level and type, it is not impossible to say that titan is able to farm at least 14g per minute of wall and the occasion nuke of wood farm and wall experience. I can then argue that titan might win since it is getting steady sum of money. you can counter that argument by saying that builder can do x, and i would titan would do y ,ad infinitum .
this illustrate that we can never the know the real of state of the game , but merely state it as "stalemate".

[spoiler=]"Builder's objective is to survive, titan's objective is to kill the builders and "chase" them off his island. Builders aren't stalling to build a base or flee from the titan, as the builder's sole objective is to survive."[/spoiler]
we written it as the goal of the game either titan kill builder or die trying.
The only way for titan to die trying is to get kill builder.
Which then rewritten the proposition as
goal of game is titan kill builder or builder kill titan

Although we cant tell the final state of the game, but we know one side will always come out on top. Therefore both side is playing
the game.
if both side is playing the game, then both side must have tried to achieve the goal of the game.
therefore, why ban?
If you blame the titan for an incredibly boring game and wasting my time. Most of the time I'd just leave at the 2nd or 3rd GP if I knew titan was not going to break the base. If the titan is bad enough or hasn't got enough minions to kill me as Demo until the 3rd or 4th GP as struck, I'd think that I have won the game as well.
if you decide to support ban on the above basis, the contrapositive must be right,
the titan can also blame the builder for an incredibly boring game and wasting his time, and if the builder is unable to kill or hasn't got enough of summons/ hunter to kill him, he had think he had won the game.

[aRt)Y]

As for always, you miss the fact that moderators are no machines. We do indeed have brains and common sense to make a difference between a titan trying to win by using a certain strategy or someone purposely delaying/stalling the game.

[seacow]

"We do indeed have brains and common sense to make a difference between a titan trying to win by using a certain strategy or someone purposely delaying/stalling the game."

whether you have no common sense or you are a robot, it is irrelevant, you missed the point of what i am trying to make here.
i am not trying to teach you how to ban a titan because he refuse to play or afk excessively , rather why is not applicable on builder?

"if neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning."
Include not just titan but builder as well, yet to refute this point, if my proposition is true then the rule should therefore apply to builder.
Do you not think that the titan is bored and extremely frustrate if he fail to obliterate euorbase after failing many time or he have to chase that one elusive last player ?

[aRt)Y]

The builders came when the titan slept, so why should we force them to leave the island?
If the titan can't win and get his Island back, it's his problem.

[seacow]

The builders came when the titan slept, so why should we force them to leave the island?
If the titan can't win and get his Island back, it's his problem.

i don't see how it refute my proposition.
"if neither builder nor titan is capable of killing of one another, therefore it is a state of stalemate.
If it is a state of stalemate, then either side must be stalling, and the state of game must have been neither losing nor winning."
If my proposition is true, then its contrapositive statement must be true.
it is not a state of stalemate, if either side is capable of killing of one another. This factually true.
if the state of game is either winning or losing, then either must not be stalling and not in a state of stalemate. which is also factually true.