Is it bannable to refuse to kick laggers?

[kunkka]

https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=148793

It would be nice to see the rules in writing. Also somehow 3 day ban became a week ban after flaming admins.

[kunkka]

yes it is, i'll let @mikejones explain you this because his english is way better than mine.

One question kunkka, do you have players history ? this player is just back from 1 year ban (from astros), after he dodged the original ban for flaming, destroying items and more and more.

He is a very popular player here, so if he is back to keep flaming people and refusing to understand something an admin is explaining, he will just be banned. We don't have the same tolerance with all players, their are some players you never heard about em so we can understand some mistakes, but for him, it's not the same story.

[kunkka]

thx for the context

[kunkka]

Incident Overview

The game, the first of the morning, took significant time to fill. Once started, Player 1 was AFK for unknown reasons. After approximately 5 minutes, player _cba initiated !kickafk to remove the AFK player, prompting the following reaction from teammate GuessWhosBack^:

(05:16 / Allied) GuessWhosBack^: why kick
(05:16 / Allied) GuessWhosBack^: ...
(05:18 / Allied) GuessWhosBack^: i wont fucking draw
(05:29 / Allied) GuessWhosBack^: i fucking wait 1h in lobby

GuessWhosBack^ was frustrated with _cba, but fact is that all players had waited over an hour for the game to start. So he was not the only victim but felt he was.

Escalation: Lag Issues

6-7 minutes into the game, after the AFK player was kicked, another player, Haliente, who was soloing bot lane, began experiencing severe lag after feeding twice. This lag caused the game’s drop screen to reset every 10 seconds, despite full votes to drop Haliente. The lag was significant enough to render the game unplayable but insufficient to automatically drop the player. This persisted for 5–7 minutes (Keep in mind game log timestamps do not account for time frozen during drop screens, making the actual duration longer.)

As an admin, I initially chose not to intervene, allowing players to resolve the issue. However, repeated attempts to votekick Haliente failed because GuessWhosBack^ refused to vote, perpetuating the unplayable lag cycle. Suspecting Haliente’s lag might be intentional, I addressed him directly:

(07:47 / All) Oxtail: haliente either u leave or u get kicked and banned for 3 days
(07:56 / All) Oxtail: pick your choice
(08:07 / All) haliente: are you stupid?
(08:09 / All) haliente: idiot?
(08:22 / All) Oxtail: leave and go fix it
(08:27 / All) Oxtail: dont hold these ppl hostage

With no resolution, I kicked Haliente, as GuessWhosBack^’s refusal to votekick and the persistent lag left no other option. The drop screen resets prevented a natural player drop.

Addressing GuessWhosBack^’s Actions

I then questioned GuessWhosBack^’s refusal to votekick Haliente, whose lag effectively held the game hostage. While no explicit rule covers every scenario, his inaction was detrimental to the eight other players stuck in an unplayable game. GuessWhosBack^ appeared to act out of bitterness over the earlier AFK kick, hoping Haliente would eventually drop and face an autoban rather than reporting him for disruptive behavior.

He felt that justice from reporting is not swift enough and better to take matters in his own hands. But in reality consistent reports could lead to monitoring Haliente’s games, similar to Pegase's case here (e.g., viewtopic.php?f=7&t=148759). However, GuessWhosBack^’s decision to obstruct the votekick process and prolong the unplayable state was unjustifiable. His actions disrupted the experience for all players, warranting a 3-day ban.

@GuessWhosBack

[Astros]

I banned him a year ago for the same negative attitude. That part hasn't changed but he is a pretty decent player nonetheless.

Not sure what his issue is but he seems to enjoy being a rebel. He puts himself in a situation where you have to do something due to him being uncooperating.

Haliente is too stupid to know how to lag himself so I highly doubt he was doing it on purpose.

I think you should have just let the ban sit for 3 days, though. His shitty attitude is what it is. But his in-game gameplay is good enough to where you just have to ignore his antics sometimes. It'd be a different story if he had an attitude and still sucked in games (Mogul).

[h3rmit]

As a former hostbot developer, I'd like to mention that all voting commands were created as a right, not as an obligation. To give power to the majority to decide its own fate. That's how democracy works.

Unless the vote is in favor of breaking an existing, already written and published rule or law, it should never be punishable. It's a right to vote, a right to have an opinion, a right given to the player to decide. As such, it should never be dictated to the player what they have to decide. It leads towards a very wrong direction and sets a very bad precedent.

Different means of applying authority and enforcing the rules should be chosen, not dictating to someone what to vote.

P.S.: I've seen admins exercising their authority from outside a game, kicking a player externally, while I was in that game. If this is possible, why ask for a public vote that everyone has the right to choose and cast a negative vote to?

[MIKEJONES]

I banned him a year ago for the same negative attitude. That part hasn't changed but he is a pretty decent player nonetheless.

Not sure what his issue is but he seems to enjoy being a rebel. He puts himself in a situation where you have to do something due to him being uncooperating.

Haliente is too stupid to know how to lag himself so I highly doubt he was doing it on purpose.

I think you should have just let the ban sit for 3 days, though. His shitty attitude is what it is. But his in-game gameplay is good enough to where you just have to ignore his antics sometimes. It'd be a different story if he had an attitude and still sucked in games (Mogul).

I agree that he’s not a bad player. I just wish he had given the admins a chance to show we’re capable and willing to enforce justice on those who break rules and ruin others’ gaming experiences instead of taking matters into his own hands. If @GuessWhosBack wants to appeal, I’d welcome it, but not with the same attitude shown here: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=148793

[MIKEJONES]

As a former hostbot developer, I'd like to mention that all voting commands were created as a right, not as an obligation. To give power to the majority to decide its own fate. That's how democracy works.

Unless the vote is in favor of breaking an existing, already written and published rule or law, it should never be punishable. It's a right to vote, a right to have an opinion, a right given to the player to decide. As such, it should never be dictated to the player what they have to decide. It leads towards a very wrong direction and sets a very bad precedent.

Different means of applying authority and enforcing the rules should be chosen, not dictating to someone what to vote.

@h3rmit forget the rules or "laws" for a second and focus on what actually went down, as I laid out in my incident review. You’re obsessing over black-and-white paper policies and player rights, even if it means letting 8 other players get screwed over in an endless lag cycle? That’s absolutely nonsensical. What was programmed into the game such as !votekicking is best effort to give players an option to solve issues in-game. It does NOT mean its perfect and able to efficiently apply in every scenario.

Side note: This is the first time I’ve ever banned someone for not votekicking, because this kind of situation is rare as hell.

[EdteOfChaos2]

This SHOULD be fixed on the bot side - e.g. 60 seconds total of lag for the entire game before it auto-drops you. Unfortunately the implementation of GProxy is broken and allows infinite lagging as long as you don't lag for a certain time in a row which completely sucks but it's unlikely it'll get changed. I do support banning people who refuse to kick these obnoxious laggers and frankly should have been doing this earlier.

Votekicking is an obligation on ENT. It's not everywhere, but it is here.

Banning him for flaming is dumb and is literally not a rule. Damn mods are fragile now huh. I got flamed 10x worse than that every day and didn't care at all.

[Jazzy3113]

Can it be a rule that if a team asks for a certain player to be kicked, and the enemy refuses, its a ban?

Or can you change it that only the 4 players on a team can kick a team member?

[GodSaveTheQQs]

We rarely ban for this reason's, as i explained below edteofchaos, the player is know for this attitude, i never banned someone for refusing a vk (even if it's mikejones who did it here), and i support his ban because you have to take everything in consideration, he would never ban him 3 days only for refusing to kick, he is banned 3 days for this + flaming + no way to speak with him + the player history + he come forum to call us low iq as he always do, so he took some more days of ban. For information, the player is unbanned since march (after a year of ban for this usual behavior + dodging).
He don't care about anyone, he don't have respect to anybody and he has to understand if he want to play here he need to respect everyone and follow rules also.

[Astros]

We rarely ban for this reason's, as i explained below edteofchaos, the player is know for this attitude, i never banned someone for refusing a vk (even if it's mikejones who did it here), and i support his ban because you have to take everything in consideration, he would never ban him 3 days only for refusing to kick, he is banned 3 days for this + flaming + no way to speak with him + the player history + he come forum to call us low iq as he always do, so he took some more days of ban. For information, the player is unbanned since march (after a year of ban for this usual behavior + dodging).
He don't care about anyone, he don't have respect to anybody and he has to understand if he want to play here he need to respect everyone and follow rules also.

You should have just locked the thread, prevent him from appealing, and stick by the 3 day ban.

Banning him longer just shows that you're using the ban as vendetta for him not doing what you want him to do. There are cases where it is warranted for sure but he hardly flamed and usually if it's forum-related, the admins on here just forum ban him. He honestly just voiced his opinion. It isn't a rule to ban someone for not votekicking a lagger so I can see why even though I would have voted yes, he felt he wasn't obligated to do so. He's hard-headed but unless that leads to another game-ruin, it's just words.

I got tons of messages from people threatening to kill me after banning them as I'm sure other moderators have previously but rarely seen anyone get banned in-game for it. Whatever happened in-game should just end there. If they don't learn their lesson again, that's when tacking additional days should be done. If forum posts dictated in-game bans, I would have been banned so many times by now so there's a huge difference in how it should be treated.

In regards to h3rmit, yeah, traditionally players don't get banned for not kicking laggers but if the lag happened for a span of 7 minutes consecutively, then I do think the onus is on the player to use their brains and just do what's right. It's a small community so I completely understand the need for some *updated* and *revised* rules to better suit the community's current needs. Just like how AREM was thankfully removed but was a rule in place since the entirety of ENT, some changes do have to be made.

I also think you're dealing with the absolute bottom of the barrel individuals when they get banned for some stupid behavior. Moderators give like 10+ chances before they ultimately decide to ban. Then when they do ban, they give every opportunity for someone to appeal and get unbanned instantly. Even after that, they still get multiple chances to just explain themselves and most likely get unbanned. If you're constantly getting banned and can't figure out why at this point, it's not a moderator issue but you being stubborn as hell. A simple, "I apologize, will try not to do it again, please unban me" would get anyone out of a ban... yet, the same violators show up time and time again. These people aren't the brightest of personalities and probably would be better off playing a different game, in all honesty.

[Astros]

Can it be a rule that if a team asks for a certain player to be kicked, and the enemy refuses, its a ban?

Or can you change it that only the 4 players on a team can kick a team member?

Becareful for what you wish for. I guarantee a team of 4 would instantly votekick you out of the game.

The current rule is fine. If players ruin, just report them and they get banned. Having a team be able to decide solely who gets to be kicked on their team is prime for abuse, e.g., taking their allies items and kicking them for no reason.

[dumpster_]

Unfortunately the implementation of GProxy is broken and allows infinite lagging as long as you don't lag for a certain time in a row

Are you sure about this?
I had one game ages ago where some guy was plug pulling intermittently but eventually got disconnected, I think after 600s of total lag time.
Maybe this was before GProxy, really can't say for sure.

[lex-]

Infero is not a bad player but his attitude is very negative sometimes. I saw his comment towards Mike is unacceptable because Mike already explained to him. Another player that I notice is good/bad, this dude is weird attitude also. For this game he had tp but he didn't help and use his ult. He absolutely ruined this game but I don't really care. It's is a game just move on.