Batrider

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Now2
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Batrider

Postby Now2 » Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:57 am

So was banned other day for using urn on bat.

Found this for the IH
Allowed:
Batrider’s napalm + Urn does an unintended excessive amount of damage but has plenty of counters (heals / magic reduction / magic block).

So we allow bat urn when playing with the better guys, but not with the noobs? wtf lol

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Re: Batrider

Postby Sylvanas » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:10 am

Shouldn't be allowed in either. "But it's counterable" is a weak irrelevant argument that comes up for every single glitch that doesn't completely turn the game upside down. Also I'm pretty sure they're not allowed to change that. Leagues can (and typically) have extra rules, but they're still subjected to the usual game rules.

nitromon wrote:I'm kinda of curious, does the napalm also increase dagon on bat?

It does, but only once, since dagon does a single damage instance. This isn't glitched, by the way, if that's what you were getting into.
Last edited by Sylvanas on Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:20 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Batrider

Postby nitromon » Sun Apr 29, 2018 4:15 am

I'm kinda of curious, does the napalm also increase dagon on bat?

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Re: Batrider

Postby Letbell » Fri May 04, 2018 5:25 am

I'm kinda of curious, does the napalm also increase dagon on bat?


It doesn't increase the damage of dagon, but rather trigger 1-tick damage toward napalm.

Let's say you're lv 7 Batrider, and you rushes
1) lv 1 dagon; 400 damage
2) Max out sticky napalm (25 dps per stack)

Let's say the situation is like this...
1) You've stacked the napalm on the enemy 7 times so...about...175 extra damage.
2) Enemy have no magic resistance

Your total damage would be 400 + 175 = 575 total damage toward an enemy without any magic resistance.

Now let's do it with Urn of shadow...which has a duration of 8 seconds and deal 25 dps/sec upon uses.
So..8 seconds means 8 tick that sticky napalm can trigger.

Now let's try the same scenario above with Urn of Shadow
8 x 25 + 200 (from urn of shadow) = 400 from just 1 stack of napalm
8 x 25(7) + 200 (from urn of shadow) = 1600 dps from just 7 stack of napalm.

1,600 damages...for a level 7 batrider is pretty insane.

Imagine you're kill people left to right from just doing urn + napalm tick in pub games. Pretty much the enemy team is screw, and there's nothing they can do lol.

Now if you tried this same method with a pre-made or pro team. They'll have 2 people from top/bottom lane going coordinate ganks and end the game smoothly. If you're get lucky and got a few charges. You'll can basically one shot any support on the enemy team pretty easily and turn the game around for your team.

My point is...it's pretty broken

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Re: Batrider

Postby pinheadlarry » Mon May 07, 2018 6:06 am

Honestly,I don't think batrider should have urn be banned. It is takes a moderate-probability sequence of events to transpire to even have this "unprecedented effect" occur.

1st - you need to buy an urn. If you don't rush urn and get the normal boots and courier before and munchies to keep you health up, you probably won't get urn till lev 3-5. If you do rush urn, then you might get it at 2-3 depending on apem or arem but you will be fighting hard for lane control and will have a hard time urning a kill (pun intended) to get the charges.

2nd - You need to get or be present for a kill once you get your urn. This doesn't always happen and then your urn "advantage" gets quickly depreciated after lane-ing stops as large stacks don't come as easily.

3rd - You need your lane opponent(s) to be dumb enough to stand around and get glopped up by naplam 4+ times before the threat gets real or you will squander the full potential of a charge. Anyone with half a brain would back out of batrider's range for 8 seconds and let the napalm buff run out when the stack hits 3-4. Only noobs who don't know the compounding urn effect get wrecked.

After lane-ing phase ends (10ish mins), getting large napalm stacks get rarer and enemy HPs/resistance gets large enough to make urn no longer "overpowered".

And by level 8 other heroes get op damage for awhile too. E.g shadow demon with purely leveled soul catcher and shadow poison will have huge damage assuming no resistance (5 stack + amp = (50*5+1040)*150%=1935). So by level 8 SD and Bat+urn really arn't that far apart. And once again, unless a noob just stands there and takes their stacks like Stormy Daniels takes... media interview opportunities... it is really easy to manage bat+urn/SD.

Like shadow demon, bat even with urn moves into mediocrity as a late game hero since they transition from an early high dps hero to basic support/disable role. Bat with urn as a unique early-game push element to dota in a way that is very strong, but not overpowered imo and therefore should be a permissible strategy.

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Re: Batrider

Postby EdgeOfChaos » Mon May 07, 2018 1:19 pm

It doesn't matter whether it's OP or not. It's a bug, therefore it is not allowed.

And it IS op anyways. I have used it before it was banned. What you wrote looks good on paper, but real games go differently.

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Re: Batrider

Postby kunkka » Mon May 07, 2018 2:36 pm

pinheadlarry probably never bought urn on bat before; nor has he been vs a decent urn bat

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Re: Batrider

Postby pinheadlarry » Mon May 07, 2018 10:38 pm

I've played a lot of arem batrider and as soon as I learned about the urn sticky combo, I starting playing bat and usually I would do the courier but no items urn rush. And if I laned against people who knew about the combo it would often lead to mediocre game since you wouldn't get the urn charges or stacks required. Yes, when you get solo mid against an unknowing noob, it's an easy 10/0 lane in a few minutes. But the sad part is you can easily go 10+/0 in the first 15 mins and later lose the game because your teammates can't/won't push early and then your k/d get butchered for the next 30 mins. Bat is horrible at pushing towers by himself and getting a sub 20min rax is virtually impossible without team support. After 20 min, unless your carries pick up the slack, momentum will change and you'll be trapped in a slaughter for the next 30 mins.

It doesn't matter whether it's OP or not. It's a bug, therefore it is not allowed.


Your totally wrong. It is 100% about being OP. If it were just about being a bug we would be arguing to ban all DPS items on bat like rad, dagon, etc and not just urn. The "bug" affects all these items too. The argument is fully about the fact people think urn is OP. And my point is, other heros can inflict very similar, or more damage (shadow demon) than bat+urn during early game. And therefore if this is a ban based on being op, it is wrong and should be lifted, or we need to ban every single item that does dps on bat to be consistent with your "bug" claim.

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Re: Batrider

Postby FalenGa » Mon May 07, 2018 11:03 pm

No, actually, you are wrong here.

The 6th of our game ruining rules is as follows : Do not purposely glitch or exploit the game.

Urn used on a target that is affected by sticky napalm is currently bugged. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it doesn't matter if you can counter it through simple awareness. All that matters is that it deals a lot of extra damage when it shouldn't, in a stage of the game where even 100 extra damage is a lot.

Exploiting any bug that affects the game is against ENT's rules, and so is the combo of urn + napalm.

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Re: Batrider

Postby Sylvanas » Mon May 07, 2018 11:22 pm

People can't help but fall in love with every incidental glitch that slips into the game and will defend them to their dying breath as if it was divine providence who brought it to us as a gift. It's just a random ass glitch, but they're so fucking certain that it was Allah in his great wisdom that made urn work with napalm to bring joy to the world, hallelujah! So it would be a terrible blasphemy to refuse his holy offering.

The glitch could have been anything, some people will always claim it was meant to be and try to justify it, only god knows why. You can't justify something that accidentally happened for no reason.

pinheadlarry wrote:Your totally wrong. It is 100% about being OP. If it were just about being a bug we would be arguing to ban all DPS items on bat like rad, dagon, etc and not just urn. The "bug" affects all these items too. The argument is fully about the fact people think urn is OP. And my point is, other heros can inflict very similar, or more damage (shadow demon) than bat+urn during early game. And therefore if this is a ban based on being op, it is wrong and should be lifted, or we need to ban every single item that does dps on bat to be consistent with your "bug" claim.

Napalm is supposed to affect every item except urn and radiance. It doesn't affect radiance, which is fine. It affects shiva/dagon/eth blade, but in their case it's intended, which is also fine. It does affect urn, which is a glitch and which is not fine.

pinheadlarry wrote:I've played a lot of arem batrider and as soon as I learned about the urn sticky combo, I starting playing bat and usually I would do the courier but no items urn rush. And if I laned against people who knew about the combo it would often lead to mediocre game since you wouldn't get the urn charges or stacks required. Yes, when you get solo mid against an unknowing noob, it's an easy 10/0 lane in a few minutes. But the sad part is you can easily go 10+/0 in the first 15 mins and later lose the game because your teammates can't/won't push early and then your k/d get butchered for the next 30 mins. Bat is horrible at pushing towers by himself and getting a sub 20min rax is virtually impossible without team support. After 20 min, unless your carries pick up the slack, momentum will change and you'll be trapped in a slaughter for the next 30 mins.

Simple hotfix for all your problems: don't play bat, no one is forcing you to.
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Re: Batrider

Postby pinheadlarry » Tue May 08, 2018 8:01 am

Urn used on a target that is affected by sticky napalm is currently bugged. It doesn't matter how strong it is, it doesn't matter if you can counter it through simple awareness. All that matters is that it deals a lot of extra damage when it shouldn't, in a stage of the game where even 100 extra damage is a lot.


I get that and can respect that. But the point I am getting at is all dps items on bat should fall under this glitch too then. The rule should be fully applied then to the other items as well or else we are condoning certain aspects of the bug and condemning others.

Napalm is supposed to affect every item except urn and radiance.


Evidence? Every single version I have played I recal this effect being the same. My understanding was the warcraft 3 game engine did not allow the urn and sticky napalm effects to be separated. Icefrog never changed this skill-combo even though he knew it so I fail to see how this is a bug rather than an unintended combo that he decided to keep rather than change the hero skills.

People can't help but fall in love with every incidental glitch that slips into the game and will defend them to their dying breath as if it was divine providence who brought it to us as a gift.


OR I could just view this as a slippery slope that will lead to a bunch of obscure bans for "bugs" aren't game breaking. E.g. phoenix rad nova, bara bash proc-ing etc.

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Re: Batrider

Postby Sylvanas » Tue May 08, 2018 10:03 pm

pinheadlarry wrote:Evidence? Every single version I have played I recal this effect being the same. My understanding was the warcraft 3 game engine did not allow the urn and sticky napalm effects to be separated. Icefrog never changed this skill-combo even though he knew it so I fail to see how this is a bug rather than an unintended combo that he decided to keep rather than change the hero skills.


Yes, I know it's dota 2, but you can check the change logs, this was always the case.

An "unintended combo that he decided to keep rather than change the hero skills" is still 100% a glitch by definition, except you're kind of speculating about what icefrog thought about it and decided he must have agreed with you. Like I said, people love their glitches and won't hesitate to make shit up if it's going to justify them.

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Re: Batrider

Postby EdgeOfChaos » Sat May 12, 2018 3:37 am

Anyways, if you can't crush pub games by using Urn on bat, then maybe DotA just isn't the game for you.

You cannot purposely glitch the game using Radiance on Phoenix. Unless you... what, intentionally die?

My understanding was the warcraft 3 game engine did not allow the urn and sticky napalm effects to be separated.

Nonsense, you don't know anything about what you can do with the wc3 game engine.

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Re: Batrider

Postby Letbell » Thu May 17, 2018 6:18 pm

Meanwhile, an ARC holding divine with no risk still roam in our current version 6.83d.
Whereas they fixed it in dota 2.

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Re: Batrider

Postby Sylvanas » Thu May 17, 2018 10:17 pm

Letbell wrote:Meanwhile, an ARC holding divine with no risk still roam in our current version 6.83d.
Whereas they fixed it in dota 2.

That's a different problem, but why are you bringing it up? I'm not seeing the connection. I suggested banning that earlier but it got denied.


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