IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Astros » Mon Sep 03, 2018 8:50 pm

Sylvanas wrote:Did I really come off as being angry there? I'm just pointing out the irrelevance of the whole "all you have to do is disable him over and over while lashing out at him" argument that always comes up whenever someone claims meepo or any other hero is imbalanced. Disabling and nuking is how you kill any hero, not just meepo. This is like saying wet cardboard and a brick wall are equally resistant, since they both break if you crash a plane on them. The fact you have to put extra focus on keeping meepo disabled just shows he's harder to kill and more evasive than many others.

Actually, that's not what I said. I said 2-3 disables are likely needed to completely immobilize a meepo and render it quite ineffective. The specialty of meepo is that it can kill you within seconds if he isn't maintained. You're making it seem as if every hero requires 2-3 disables. Did I say that for Furion, Ezalor, Rhasta? There aren't many heroes where 2-3 disables are needed and depending on the type of disables, it still may not be enough if the player is skilled enough to use the meepos and create distance. Some heroes do not require being disabled while some require numerous disables.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Astros » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:06 pm

Sylvanas wrote:
Dhamma wrote:
Sylvanas wrote:shows he's harder to kill and more evasive than many others.


You said Many others, not any other. This implies that there are heroes that are harder to kill. How about we ban any hero that's hard to kill. Better yet go email icefrog and tell him to remove any hero you think is hard to kill.

#SteelLogic

I didn't even pronounce myself on whether he's the hardest to kill and if not, who is. Even if you established which hero is the hardest to kill under all circumstances, it wouldn't automatically make him the most imbalanced. It's just one factor. All I'm saying is "well you have to disable him and nuke him" is a worthless argument that just indicates meepo is among the harder to kill general category of heroes. It's not his "counter", it's every and any hero's counter. But sure, if "he's balanced because you can kill him by having your entire team disable and nuke him" solves the whole question, good for you and your #steellogic.

1) Meepo isn't exactly an easy hero to play. Most competent meepos have been playing him religiously for many games. Your average DotA player is looking to repick Meepo because he involves a lot of effort to play and a simple misclick can ruin your gameplay. I'm too lazy to play meepo and would rather swap him.

2) Yes, every hero can die by getting massively punished by disables. That's not my point. Some heroes, when disabled, are tougher to kill than others. The fact is, against meepo, immobilizing him tends to screw up the logical process of meepo moreso than any other hero. It encourages teamwork and if that's something a team can't do, why should a hero be banned? To clarify, a proficient meepo against a team with very few disables is VERY hard to stop. Pick any other hero that is considered one of the tougher heroes to stop and I don't think they'll be tougher to stop than a meepo - which is my point. There is a heavy emphasis on a team getting more disables vs Meepo because the specialty and pros of a Meepo is the amount of meepos. Just like you will need more physical damage to stop a huskar than you would need intel heroes.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Astros » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:11 pm

EdgeOfChaos wrote:Here's a shutdown of a geo we just had in a pub: https://entgaming.net/openstats/dota/game/11310521/
He had everything going for him. Last pick geomancer, no one had picked to counter him, and the favored team (20 ELO) and had a smurf 2/0 on his side.

How? We grouped at 10 minutes and attacked together until all 3 raxes were gone. They couldn't do anything but watch, since Geo only had boots.

The problem I find with people who complain about meepo being imbalanced is those who don't know how to work as a team. He's very easy to stop (if you have a few disables and you should on your team) if you work as a collective group. There isn't a single meepo out there who would try a 5v1 against a competent team. They usually prey on unsuspecting players who are trying to counter push a lane and/or just don't listen to their team and plays solo. The question of meepo being imbalanced or not should be redirected at players who refuse to listen to help counter against a meepo because that is essentially the biggest problem when facing a meepo. If that is the solution, should players be banned because they refuse to play a certain way against a meepo that would be for the betterment of the team?
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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Sylvanas » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:27 pm

There isn't a single a single non-meepo either that would 1v5 a competent team. Not even an incompetent one, unless in extreme cases. That leaves maybe just meepo, slark and husk. You can't use something that applies to anything and everything as evidence. I perfectly agree that meepo needs more disabling and coordination to kill than your average hero, but I just don't see how you could pass that as his weakness and call him balanced because of it. Of course, balance is relative to the skill level of everyone involved. You can't have everything equally balanced across all skill levels, but there's no denying the huge advantage of heroes like meepo and slark in the context of your average game.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Letbell » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:31 pm

Yeah
Astros wrote:The problem I find with people who complain about meepo being imbalanced is those who don't know how to work as a team. He's very easy to stop (if you have a few disables and you should on your team) if you work as a collective group. There isn't a single meepo out there who would try a 5v1 against a competent team. They usually prey on unsuspecting players who are trying to counter push a lane and/or just don't listen to their team and plays solo. The question of meepo being imbalanced or not should be redirected at players who refuse to listen to help counter against a meepo because that is essentially the biggest problem when facing a meepo. If that is the solution, should players be banned because they refuse to play a certain way against a meepo that would be for the betterment of the team?


This isn't toward you, but for other players who doesn't give a shit about teammates :lol:
Yep, this is what all typical pubs does: "I ain't gonna listen to my teammate because I didn't take mid-lane, and I'm less far gold & experiences when I go off-lane" or something like "Hell no, I'm gonna carry this shit. Ya'l keep feeding that meepo even though I warded" or maybe something like "DUDE, WHY THE FUCK U PICK SUPPORT AND BUILD CARRY ITEMS?!".
Big tips: Played the game, if you lose then move on. If you win, congratulation - because no one gives a shit xD -Truthstory2k09

I've seen far worst player who picked lich and went dagon & lothar or that typical Lion support who went Thread + Lothar + Agh without warding the whole game or that one dude who picked crystal maiden and doesn't build forcestaff or that Jariko who called mid and failed miserably.

Play safe, coordinate your team, and don't make punish-able mistakes that gives an advantage.
Play smart and don't be that one cry-baby who doesn't give a shit about the teammate.
If you play a support, play as a roamer or support, and don't play as a carry because you ain't a carry baby-girl.
If you play a carry, play as a hard carry, and don't buy ward or mek man; even if you are a semi-carry - go hard carry items.

Hell, even a 70% win-rate meepo Spammer in Dota 2 can still lose game even if people doesn't pick counter against meepo - All the enemy team needs to is play safe, coordinate team, and punish those roamer with TP scrolls or roam as duo.
This is why people don't spam meepo in 5K MMR, because meepo is easy to punish by duo roamers or medicore-carry teams (This is what I saw most of the time when playing 5K games.)

Although, I still makes bunch of mistakes whenever I played against a good/bad techies.

Edit1: If you don't want to play games against meepo.
1) Install Dota 2
2) Survive through HELL MMR (1k-4k)
3) Self taught russian. Knowing what "cyka blyakt" is also fine.
4) Enjoy non-meepo spam in 5k MMR, but good luck enjoying duo-medicore roamers & drow ranger spammer.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby EdgeOfChaos » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:18 am

Very well, instead of saying Meepo is weak to disables, let's put it this way. One of Meepo's weaknesses is that he has no response to disables, while most other heroes do; he can't do anything but sit there and take it. All dota heroes have strengths and weaknesses, it just happens that Meepo's are quite extreme. He can fail hard or he can destroy all the enemies and win in a slaughter. That's why people feel he is overpowered; they've seen plenty of the slaughters, but not the fails, because they or their teams aren't good enough to do it against the smurfer meepos who are usually somewhat high skill.

I am glad this thread shows that people are starting to understand meepo. Hopefully people will start learning that jungling as Axe to outcarry meepo midgame isn't a good idea, and a zero stun team won't be too effective vs him, but based on my pub experience we have a long way to go.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Peachtree » Wed Sep 05, 2018 8:40 am

I cant actually belive some of you are saying meepo is not broken / op/ can be dealt with in this patch and the same goes with arc and oracle, and no wonder all these heroes will be nerfred to dogshit in the following patches. Meepo literally has 70% winrate and yet no one can actually play him properly. Em mode meepo has 0 real counters since every one of them can be dealt with by changing his gamestyle or build.
I used to main meepo about 4 years ago in a non em bot, where there were many players way better than me, and i still managed to get around 68% winrate. I cant even image how it is nowadays when most of the better players who know how to play agaisnt geo have alrdy left to dota 2.

Meepo has 0 weakeness in easy mode and if u think he has some you're either too noobto see it, or u have never acutally seen a good meepo player. and im not actually suprised that the players who say meepo should not get banned are the ones that play him and have no shame about it, and or ones who think dota 2 is anywhere near the same as PUB EM mode.

To sum this up: if you win agaisnt meepo, its not because u did well its rather that the enemy meepo sucked balls.
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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby kunkka » Wed Sep 05, 2018 3:43 pm

meepo is a cancer hero lol. You pick it, farm for 30 min, and win game. Died after entire team unload their shit on you? np you come back with shorter respawn time and no buyback restrictions. Those who said meepo is balanced - please tell me why meepo has such a high win rate and why meepo is spammed when trying to snipe?

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Letbell » Wed Sep 05, 2018 4:36 pm

How about we made a suggestion to nerf meepo then? Just like we fix courier that doesn't affect techies bomb or that lycan's ultimate bug.
We could implement something like this...

1) remove meepo's agh
2) reduces meepo's magic resist from 33% to 0%
3) reduce meepo's base damage by 3
4) reduce meepo's strength base by 4
5) reduce meepo's agility base by 3
6) reduce meepo's intelligence by 2
7) reduce meepo's movement speed by 10
8) reduce meepo's hp by 60 and mp by 15
9) reduce meepo's poof damage from 130 to 110.

That way, people won't complain about meepo anymore.

Edit 1: Meanwhile, drow ranger in data 2 still getting buff even tho the hero won 4 Ti in a row...FOR FUCK SAKE VALVE, NERF THE FUCKING DROW RANGER MAN. THAT FUCKING DROW PUSHING STRATS IS STUPID AS FUCK

Edit 2: Need a moderator to lock down this topic, because the discussion is getting nowhere :shock:

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Peachtree » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:08 pm

Letbell wrote:How about we made a suggestion to nerf meepo then? Just like we fix courier that doesn't affect techies bomb or that lycan's ultimate bug.
We could implement something like this...

1) remove meepo's agh
2) reduces meepo's magic resist from 33% to 0%
3) reduce meepo's base damage by 3
4) reduce meepo's strength base by 4
5) reduce meepo's agility base by 3
6) reduce meepo's intelligence by 2
7) reduce meepo's movement speed by 10
8) reduce meepo's hp by 60 and mp by 15
9) reduce meepo's poof damage from 130 to 110.

That way, people won't complain about meepo anymore.

Edit 1: Meanwhile, drow ranger in data 2 still getting buff even tho the hero won 4 Ti in a row...FOR FUCK SAKE VALVE, NERF THE FUCKING DROW RANGER MAN. THAT FUCKING DROW PUSHING STRATS IS STUPID AS FUCK

Edit 2: Need a moderator to lock down this topic, because the discussion is getting nowhere :shock:



Wuut i thougth you were in the camp ''geomancer not op just play better hur hur'' Your 'suggestions' of the nerfs just show that you actually think people complain about meepo for no reason, which makes me a sad boi i must say. Its like saying the old naix with 20 sec bkb as a ulti was not op, cos it could be countered by troll.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Dhamma » Wed Sep 05, 2018 5:14 pm

Agree, the discussion is getting nowhere. Especially when someone is posting requests for balance changes. This is entirely the wrong place for that.

Balance change suggestions should be sent to icefrog@gmail.com Good luck.
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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby fgfe » Thu Sep 06, 2018 1:57 am

For the ones being interested in how meepo got balanced the last years: https://liquipedia.net/dota2/Meepo
Meepo has like a 55% winrate in the highest bracket in dota2 (--> those people usually have a shitton of games on meepo), but is more of a strong cheese-lastpick than seen as an inbalanced hero overall. He also has hardly been picked in pro games lately.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby MageOfTime » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:35 am

dunno why yall complaining about nerfing meepo just get rid of easy mode and he sucks

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Letbell » Thu Sep 06, 2018 2:42 am

Peachtree wrote:Wuut i thougth you were in the camp ''geomancer not op just play better hur hur'' Your 'suggestions' of the nerfs just show that you actually think people complain about meepo for no reason, which makes me a sad boi i must say. Its like saying the old naix with 20 sec bkb as a ulti was not op, cos it could be countered by troll.


Yeah Geo isn't op.
Drow is op, because she's very fucking annoying in dota 2.
If you ever play against a drow-pushing strats. You'll know what I mean.

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Re: IT'S TIME TO BAN MEEPO

Postby Peachtree » Thu Sep 06, 2018 3:18 am

Letbell wrote:
Peachtree wrote:Wuut i thougth you were in the camp ''geomancer not op just play better hur hur'' Your 'suggestions' of the nerfs just show that you actually think people complain about meepo for no reason, which makes me a sad boi i must say. Its like saying the old naix with 20 sec bkb as a ulti was not op, cos it could be countered by troll.


Yeah Geo isn't op.
Drow is op, because she's very fucking annoying in dota 2.
If you ever play against a drow-pushing strats. You'll know what I mean.


Hero with 70% winrate yet no one can play him is not op even tho there has never been so high winrate with a hero since. Hero that cannot be countered is not op, i agree, Hero that has 0 weaknesses in any stage of the game is not op, i agree. Hero that gains too much exp and has a bugged death timer is not op, i agree. I bet you are you're also in the club of oracle and arc in 83 are not op hihi

Also im so confused why some of you are comparing dota 3 to em pub. They are literally nothing alike.


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