0103 review, and complaints from Burn

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0103 review, and complaints from Burn

Postby Neco » Fri Nov 27, 2015 12:10 am

Goals:
  • A smallish update featurewise.
  • Focus on updating / expanding out "boring" builders.
  • Fix all upgrade hotkey positioning.
  • Update all item tooltips.
  • Update starting race tooltips.
  • Improve on website / IDX ease of use (hotkeys tool updating with versions etc).


Anything else you guys would like to see in this version?

0103 Review:
  • People seem quite happy with how Terminus turned out. There are some reports of stuttery movement / animations which I'll have to look into... looks like the Mountain Giant model doesn't have good default spell cast animation delays.
  • MMD patch up seems to have worked quite well, all the games I've looked into are reporting wins / losses correctly. Shame about the lack of more detailed statistics but... I may look into that a little later.
  • The issue in the first version with the -move command was a letdown. I really expected everything to be fine but should have done more research into the SyncSelection function rather than assumed it was all fine. I'll probably adopt a policy to always test a release version (as in, one without a letter after it) on Battle.net so that cases such as this are handled before they become a problem.
  • Pool of Ancient Ritual changes seem to be accepted with bemused interest. I'll look into expanding this in this version I think. Demonologist really needs ultimate towers. Tauren and Mag too for that matter.
  • No feedback from anyone about the 10g for Titan change. I'm not sure if that's due to lack of exposure or if it just doesn't interest people... I'll just assume if no one complains then it's accepted as a good thing for now.
  • All the major Titans are done which is a good feeling, it certainly gives the game more depth. Fossurious and Breezerious will be difficult to balance and mold in with the others however, so I may take a break from them and start focusing on Defenders and their issues next.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby Lynx » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:38 am

Neco wrote: Demonologist really needs ultimate towers.

Whoaw, calm there satan

Seriously though, if you are considering to add ultimate towers to Demonoligist you'd have to at least remove his wall upgrade (The one that siphons life), he'd just be a too good general support and out class every other support builder in their niche. Demonoligist's niche should be the ability to hunt down minions and kill them, the current version also adds the main titan to the menu and also base defense. And now you will add base offense, that's basically everything you'd want from a support except avatar.

A cool ultimate tower would be nice though, but it should definitely be at the cost some of his abilities (Like his extremely strong late game walls for example). He just have far too many possible applications at the moment, especially with 3 research centers all full researchables and consumables (I'm not saying that he has a lot to research is bad, I'm saying that he can way more different tasks compared to other supports).
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Neco wrote:Anything else you guys would like to see in this version?


I find games quite dull at the moment to be honest, especially when playing as a Builder. There just isn't enough room to perform, or there isn't any room for the elitist to distinguish themselves from the other players. There is only base item jumping and wallwalking to some extent that is left that requires some effort to do, and even that isn't really [i]that[i] hard. If you compare 309d with 400, there was some features that were focused to appeal to the elitist, for example Chimera scouting, Worker micro management to dispel multiple wand of the winds, different Titan play styles that varied between players and Titans but not so much in effectiveness (Given the game situation was good for the play style), and also less escape paths in the trees (Makes it easier to escape for mediocre players while it doesn't affect the skilled players as they wouldn't have died anyways, so the difference between player skill doesn't reflect itself onto the game as it should). These examples are just a few on the top of my head of different features that appealed to the elitist, that is in my experience removed in 400. (309d also have this non-appeal problem, but 400's is more noticeable).

Now, I'm not advocating for the re-implementation of these specific features. What I want is something that appeals for every different audience, ID does a good job targeting the low and average skilled players but I feel like it leaves out the high skilled players. There just isn't enough for them to do or to improve at. Playing builder for example, you start off and build your lumber base in the matter of 10s of seconds and then walk mid to gather gold at the risk of not dying since you know every single move the Titan can do and you know that he can't kill you, you transition into the mid game to build your base with the most lumber you could have acquired at that time and then you wait for the Titan to attempt to siege your base. That isn't fun. What I suggest is to add complex difficult features which isn't necessary for the player to use but, if they are used correct they are beneficial to the player and gives an strategic advantage. What exactly these features are, I don't know. But to add new mechanics is definitely the way to go in my opinion, new mechanics leads the new discoveries that leads to discussion and amazement and more activity. I like Dlno's TP suggestion, and I think other similar mechanics should definitely be worth considering.

Adding advanced mechanics would then lead to concrete distinguishable levels of skill, where the high skill option of a current situation yields in a more promising return rather than an equal return which it is in the current version (kind of). For example if you were to bump into the Titan near a escape path in the trees you can either take the route into the trees for a simple escape or you can wallwalk the Titan, both yields the same return but they are different in skill requirements.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby narbtit » Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:28 pm

I am liking mostly all of the new changes I'm seeing. Lynx you can still be pro with nat it just takes work, it's difficult and risky. I am seeing more teamwork in games, like more people will help quad base in pubbies. I'm not sure if its because of elo or people getting a bit better.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby Burn » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:11 am

Make Tauren tanky again, nerf his towers and i'll start sheep tagging and making youtube videos again.

Change Mag, give him a reliable escape, and I might consider playing him more.

Buff titan camping early game, and I'll start uploading more titan videos.

-Burn

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby Neco » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:05 am

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby Burn » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:21 am

Neco wrote:I would disagree to that. Late-game armor granting items are too effective on Fortified units.


Also, Tauren doesn't have magic resist.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby Neco » Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:29 am

A Tauren is a unit, not a structure? Really don't see your point here.

Burn wrote:Also, Tauren doesn't have magic resist.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby Burn » Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:01 am

I'm as tired of this discussion as you are.

Tauren in 309d is definitely, without a doubt, more tanky. End of story.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

Postby lordmillt » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:11 am

i think we gotta stop compare 309 to 400, its not the same version anymore, if you miss 309 there is a hosting service.
I would like to see panda and huntress again. Some buffs to underused bases.
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    Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

    Postby Neco » Sat Nov 28, 2015 9:47 am

    Yes, we know that already. He was intentionally nerfed from 3.0.9d as he was an overpowered supporter in that version.

    Even you said so yourself:
    Burn wrote:The problem with 3.0.9d Tauren was he was basically unkillable, unless you had double or triple wand for his charge (assuming he doesn't wand deto). Basically why I played him so much. You can easily camp gold mound 24/7 without worrying about WW at the start of the game. Now that wand has CD, titan needs to double wand with mound, or get insane amounts of damage like with Bubo's WW crit + stun nuke (and even then).
    Burn wrote:Tauren is too OP at the start, but that can be changed with a non-fortified armour change. Titan only needs to WW attack twice, wotw charge, attack another, nuke.


    So what now Burn? Are you against balancing this version? You've said so yourself, Tauren as he was in 3.0.9d was overpowered.

    In 0103b, he's not so overpowered but is still tanky and strong, especially with levels. Here are the numbers if anyone is interested: http://1drv.ms/1kYFiQe.
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    Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

    Postby Lynx » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:20 am

    Tauren might have been unkillable, but he didn't do shit with the resources required. The only thing he was better than other builders was to troll the Titan and stall him for time. He could kill a single minion if it was out of position but that still was kind off rare since tp must've been on cd for it to die. I don't care anymore what you do as I find all these discussions completely pointless since the end result will never change no matter how convincingly one side wins. So I'm neutral on this, I just wanted to say that 3.0.9d Tauren wasn't OP, he was just good at trolling bad Titans. If the Titans skill is lower than the builders, the Titan should lose.

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    Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

    Postby FollowingPath » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:55 am

    Burn wrote:Buff titan camping early game, and I'll start uploading more titan videos.


    Camping shouldn't be a viable strategy. It should be a high-risk, high-reward strategy, which it won't be if you buff it.
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    Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

    Postby Lynx » Sat Nov 28, 2015 1:32 pm

    Camping is a completely non-viable strategy at the moment. Golding change and wotw change completely destroyed it.

    Disclaimer: I'm not saying you should or shouldn't change this, I'm just pointing out facts.

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    Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

    Postby FollowingPath » Sat Nov 28, 2015 2:18 pm

    It might not be viable in an IH game, but it still works in pubs. They get impatient because of the "camping = noob" mindset, so they often risk for gold without having workers near the mound.
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    Re: [4.0.0][0104] Builder Refresh - In Development

    Postby Burn » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:00 pm

    Tauren was OP in 309d. That's true. I suggested the nerf of his early game, but you actually nerfed his late game more. Tauren late game was reliant on his fortified armour to stack SoM and other armour items to be tanky as fuck even in builder form. Without Fortified, he is complete shit late game. With 1750HP and a fucktonne of armour, I still feel like an ant next to a fed titan. In 309d, I'd be nigh un-killable.

    I suggest buffing late game, but nerfing early game. That's the way it should be, so that if a titan feeds you too much gold, you'd be OP as fuck.

    At the moment, faerie is the tankiest motherfucker in town with his fort armour + LET + bonus HP + passive range slow, when it should be Tauren and Mag who are the tankiest golders on the map. Mag is tanky, but he doesn't have as reliable an escape as faerie.

    Even Ogre is STILL tankier than Tauren, especially after his recent buff. I've brought this up before, and it seems like you're just not quite understanding the gist.

    At the moment, tauren is a better baser and a worse support compared to Ogre. Anyone see the problem with this? Tauren is supposed to main support with pokes and tankiness, not being a pussy tower baser.

    The problem is every single problem that we said Tauren had, you ignored, and tried to explain away all the problems by giving minor buffs to things we don't need. We don't need starting armour on Tauren.

    1) We need over-golded late game tauren to troll the titan and support bases. (over 90G)
    2) We need Tauren to be tankier late game at the mound so he isn't weaker than some tower basers like Ogre, Radioactive and Faerie. (over 180G)
    3) We need Tauren to have a magic resistance upgrade, but cost either a lot of wood, or some gold like demo's upgrade so he's still weak early.
    4) We need Tauren mana upgrades.
    5) We need a Tauren that is not OP, but fun to play. At the moment, he is both OP and boring. I play him every time to carry against scrubs not because he is fun to play, but because his towers are OP as fuck atm.

    -Burn


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