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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Lynx » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:29 pm

Alright,

I'm going to be harsh, but it's the truth.

You are completely destroying any resemblance of balance this version still has left. I think having buildings remain after death is an interesting idea, and it could and should totally work. It's such a large change and will have a significant impact on the game, so you really have to compensate for it. Next version must either buff builders or nerf titan. If you continue buffing titan every patch, people will eventually get bored by being stomped by bad players.

I think the root cause of this imbalance problem is that none of the players that have influence over balance changes have no idea to play a competent titan and thus will not balance the game properly.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby wastedlandering » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:33 pm

I also don't 100 percent agree with neutral buildings, at least without some sort of balance to the EXP issue.

As @burn and @Lynx have been saying for a while, EXP right now is in a fairly poor state (and I think the reasons are most accurately told by @Beekauzh in this post here: https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 47#p308847 ). Titan's are leveling up disproportionately fast to a builders ability to defend. It feels like it takes no time at all for a Titan to reach level 8+ and romp through a full super base at 15-20 mins.

Games are currently extremely polarized: either the titan stomps the builders, or the builders stomp the titan, with very few games in between. It is basically retarded to fight a really good titan these days, because even if they have a bad start, they can still stall stomp the fuck out of a lobby with 1-2 feeders in the game. This also results in a load of lobbies going for early 4/5/6 man bases that are retarded to try and break. It's not fun for the titan, and not fun for the builders.

My personal suggestion for helping balance exp: reduce the amount of stat gain titan's get per level. Right now, I don't really mind a titan gaining levels quickly, and I really don't want to see Island Defense move to a level 5-8 titan essentially being the end game. I think that, especially for players who don't know how to use tome of retraining, I am fine with the titan's level, but I am not fine with how easily they plow through a base.

Simply nerfing exp gains will only make it harder for new titans to get essential abilities (leveling up nuke, leveling up heal, uniques, etc).

Also, I don't know if this was addressed in the patch, but if neutral buildings are in the game, you have to remove the +10g for leaving builders imo.

I personally like the idea of neutral buildings. It definitely will have a positive impact on the game I think (personally I HATE sieging bases and avoiding killing the builder trying to sui). But there -has- to be a counter change. I see what @Shadowzz is saying with there is a trade off, where builders will no longer lose all their walls, etc, but the change is overwhelmingly favorable to the titan.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby pep » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:35 pm

I kinda agree titan was in an alright spot was it not for people quadbasing with 2 refugees not making any feed and killing the game after 10 minutes if you get a few early kills.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Neco » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:35 pm

The game should not be balanced around suiciding your builder or leaving the game.

Things will be updated accordingly.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby FollowingPath » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:36 pm

ShadowZz wrote:@Humik This is what I just wrote to @lordmillt in our Discord -

"@lordmillt Be more open-minded. That change also buffs builders and gameplay. If you have a rewaller and they die rewalling, saving the base rewalling for example. Those walls will stay and won't simply dissapear. Likewise people will be less worried about dying whilst rewalling and might even sacrifice themselves to build the walls and they will stay when they die. Think of it from both sides before qqing about it. On an off-topic point it makes no sense for the "buildings" to vanish out of existence because the builder died."

All it's going to do is switch from builders suiciding if the titan breaks their base to buildings actually having to think ahead and deto early or start detoing when the base is broken. At the end of the day the titans goal is to kill the builders and it doesn't make sense for titan to have to ignore a builder meleeing him whilst he's sieging. Builders will simply try to survive a siege or "get out" and can still deto their own buildings. Good players already do this, they already try to escape and deto 3/4 of their entire base worth of feed successfully without feeding the minion. It's just become such a normal thing that builders with low skill simply suicide and "problem solved". Increasing the skill cap for builders has been mentioned before and this offers benefits on both sides in different situations whilst being a step in the direction of better gameplay.

I hope this clarifies it better :)


Edit: Another interesting point would be when you have 4 builders camping in the back of a base hoping it doesn't get broken they can actually be useful and run out to rewall considering if they get nuked atleast the base stays up due to the walls staying.


In that case towers should still attack if a builder dies/leaves. You used to be able to decide if you'd rather want a minion or try your luck at sieging a base for feed. Now both of those are possible; you simply nuke the builder and walk right into the base, even if you shouldn't be able to break it. It just makes it too easy for a decent titan to steamroll a game, even if the lobby is full of skilled builders.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby wastedlandering » Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:52 pm

Neco wrote:The game should not be balanced around suiciding your builder or leaving the game.

Things will be updated accordingly.


For the record, I 100% agree, and my impression from talking to a lot of IDers essentially boils down to this.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Hash » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:28 pm

Lynx wrote:Alright,

I'm going to be harsh, but it's the truth.

You are completely destroying any resemblance of balance this version still has left. I think having buildings remain after death is an interesting idea, and it could and should totally work. It's such a large change and will have a significant impact on the game, so you really have to compensate for it. Next version must either buff builders or nerf titan. If you continue buffing titan every patch, people will eventually get bored by being stomped by bad players.

I think the root cause of this imbalance problem is that none of the players that have influence over balance changes have no idea to play a competent titan and thus will not balance the game properly
.


I completely agree with @lynx-, I like the idea of neutral buildings but think there needs to a buff to builder or nerf to titan to balance this out and/or rework the neautralized buildings feed rates.

wastedlandering wrote:I also don't 100 percent agree with neutral buildings, at least without some sort of balance to the EXP issue.

As @burn and @Lynx have been saying for a while, EXP right now is in a fairly poor state (and I think the reasons are most accurately told by @Beekauzh in this post here: https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... 47#p308847 ). Titan's are leveling up disproportionately fast to a builders ability to defend. It feels like it takes no time at all for a Titan to reach level 8+ and romp through a full super base at 15-20 mins.

Games are currently extremely polarized: either the titan stomps the builders, or the builders stomp the titan, with very few games in between. It is basically retarded to fight a really good titan these days, because even if they have a bad start, they can still stall stomp the fuck out of a lobby with 1-2 feeders in the game. This also results in a load of lobbies going for early 4/5/6 man bases that are retarded to try and break. It's not fun for the titan, and not fun for the builders.


My personal suggestion for helping balance exp: reduce the amount of stat gain titan's get per level. Right now, I don't really mind a titan gaining levels quickly, and I really don't want to see Island Defense move to a level 5-8 titan essentially being the end game. I think that, especially for players who don't know how to use tome of retraining, I am fine with the titan's level, but I am not fine with how easily they plow through a base.

Simply nerfing exp gains will only make it harder for new titans to get essential abilities (leveling up nuke, leveling up heal, uniques, etc).

Also, I don't know if this was addressed in the patch, but if neutral buildings are in the game, you have to remove the +10g for leaving builders imo.

I personally like the idea of neutral buildings. It definitely will have a positive impact on the game I think (personally I HATE sieging bases and avoiding killing the builder trying to sui). But there -has- to be a counter change. I see what @Shadowzz is saying with there is a trade off, where builders will no longer lose all their walls, etc, but the change is overwhelmingly favorable to the titan.



I pretty much agree with all of @wastedlander's statements here. I think he brings up some good points and solutions.

FollowingPath wrote:
In that case towers should still attack if a builder dies/leaves. You used to be able to decide if you'd rather want a minion or try your luck at sieging a base for feed. Now both of those are possible; you simply nuke the builder and walk right into the base, even if you shouldn't be able to break it. It just makes it too easy for a decent titan to steamroll a game, even if the lobby is full of skilled builders.


With these new changes the way it is atm, it seems like the skill level for titan keeps dropping.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby ShadowZz » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:32 pm

Because this seems to come up a lot I want to point it out.

@Lynx
Lynx wrote:I think the root cause of this imbalance problem is that none of the players that have influence over balance changes have no idea to play a competent titan and thus will not balance the game properly.


Current statistics on your main account:
Games Played
49
Defender Games
34/8 (42)
Titan Games
2/5 (7)
Time Spent In-Game
13h 28m 28s

1 loss every 4.25 games to a good titan.

You seem to be stomping as builder and failing as titan in the latest versions yet still argue titan is OP. Interesting...

Lynx wrote: Next version must either buff builders or nerf titan. If you continue buffing titan every patch, people will eventually get bored by being stomped by bad players.


@Burn
Please don't take this as flame. I'm using you as a control measure and because people recognize you in the community as a great player.
Burn's stats:
Defender Games
300/29 (340)
Titan Games
40/16 (65)
Time Spent In-Game
140h 49m 24s

1 loss every 10.3 games to a good titan.

Burn has just over a 2/1 win ratio with titan and I think everyone can see the insane w/l ratio with builder.

Myself as a control:
Defender Games
50/34 (84)
Titan Games
6/8 (15)
Time Spent In-Game
43h 14m 17s

Average titan, average builder.

@Fullmelthash
Defender Games
952/96 (1085)
Titan Games
1/0 (1)
Time Spent In-Game
415h 06m 18s

1 loss every 9.91 games to a good titan (considering you dodge good titans every time they join I'm guessing it's just a retard builder lobby).

Yup definitely seems like builder is hard in the last few versions.....

Fossurious:
Defender Games
219/68 (288)
Titan Games
119/61 (186)
Time Spent In-Game
214h 53m 29s

1 loss every 3.2 games to a good titan.

Foss adapted well like a few others. 50% win ratio as titan. Insane w/l ratio with builder yet again.

Shibumi:
Defender Games
422/130 (563)
Titan Games
173/31 (209)
Time Spent In-Game
326h 26m 27s

1 loss every 3.24 games to a good titan.

Shibumi currently has the highest w/l ratio with titan in all of ID. His w/l with builder is above average as well.

I can keep pulling these numbers all day. The point is that there's about 10-15 titans in all of ID that are actually going past a 2/1 win ratio (pretty much expected). Meanwhile pretty much every single builder from average skill level is going 2/1 and above.

The point behind this is the people who do actually do really well as titan and have a high w/l. Also have an even higher w/l with builder. The same people who stomp you as titan seem to have 0 issue stomping you harder with builder. The problem isn't that titan is OP. Feel free to look at the numbers. It's simply that builders seem to play like trash and QQ at everyone else.

You can feel free to test it yourself but if you put these great titans in a balanced lobby their w/l ratio's fall down to 50% and below.

You ask for balance but your argument for it is that good titans stomp with 1-2 feeders. Well good job man, you guys genius. I mean who would have thought that a titan with 4000 games played should win vs a lobby with 3 noob feeders. I mean holy crap ID is imbalanced right? Really annoys me...

Everyone keeps whining about singular titans steam rolling lobbies and I 100% agree that's true. But that really isn't a map balance issue. That's an ENT balance issue. There is 0 chance ANYBODY can balance games where Fossurious or Shibumi or Burn go titan in a pub lobby. It's just not gonna happen. Unless you guys want to convince them all to never titan unless it's a full lobby of other people with 2000+ games then be my guest because I can almost guarantee they will say no.

Likewise, people like Fullmelthash should statistically only play vs titans like Shibumi, Fossurious, Burn etc but instead they dodge every single game they have against them to protect their ELO.

The point is, ID is pretty balanced ( getting as close as possible really ) but there is no fucking way in hell to deal with the issue of an insane titan vs 6 pubs and 4 above average players. It's just not gonna happen and the sooner people stop whining about it and realize the reason why that's true, the better. To elaborate, if you nerf titan to deal with this problem then average players will simply lose every titan game due to only exceptional players being able to get a steady w/l. You either appease the majority (average players) or nerf titan into the ground for the 20 ish people who are at that skill level. You already have ridiculous w/l ratios with builders yet still find the time to whine about the 1 loss every 3/4 games you get against a good titan. It's ironic really...
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby road-kill » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:49 pm

even if terrain is still flat, we'd still play island defense tbh :/ but some people will have to die..

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Merex » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:53 pm

ShadowZz wrote:@Fullmelthash That "vital" pathway hasn't existed for around 6 years. It's only actually existed in the past few months since it was added so I'd hardly call it "vital".

Simple fact is that the entire area is borderline useless/broken. Trying to "fix" it would be more hassle than simply removing it and reworking it from scratch. The game hasn't lost anything through it's removal. Same amount of bases as before, same amount of lumber bases. The only difference is that the new base/lumber base are both usable and punishable. There location also falls near a standard pearl so it doesn't mess with scouting too much.

That exact lumber base has existed in island defense for as long as I can remember. Same 2 walls, same prevention of being unnukable. How do you even call it broken? If anything I'd expect your extensive observations to be focused more in top and bottom left. Top left only requires 3 walls for an ''unnukable'' lumber base. Bottom left only requires 2 walls for an ''unnukable'' lumber base. If you do the lumber base above broken fountain right, it only requires 2 walls to become unnukable. How about the most common lumber base bottom leftish, to the right of the bottom left bases. 3 walls, no nukes. I can go on for you if you really wanna argue broken from mere gameplay.

The titan's objective is to kill lumber bases, find feed. If a titan, who I remind you, can also hit walls, shelters and workers to break these lumber bases can nuke every single lumber base, then why even bother making one? You just risk feeding tons of EXP on top of having to keep track of it the entire game, it's ridiculous. The base in top mid only requires 2 walls which means realistically the titan only has to kill 1 to get into the lumber base itself and if any builder is sitting inside that area, they're dead unless teleport or the recent jump spot.

The base in top mid has become horridly useless. Sorry to you and Neco and whoever worked on it's reconstruction but it's not used. Put aside technicalities and focus on public knowledge with what I'm saying in this paragraph. It's not used. Why have a vacant base in ID? It's like I told Neco in discord, I use to base there to give it some attention but now I don't even bother. Instead of just drowning it, you should've tried to improve it and like hash said, if you really want top mid to be nuked then cut some trees out. It's that simple.

Having top mid removed ruins it's tradition and honor over the ''6 years'' and honestly there was no need to. Bottom left is something everyone is unhappy with and as an ID player myself, I find having to move across the map because of the primary reason ''broken'' to be just ridiculous and unnecessary. Either replace it with something new or leave it as it. It isn't ideal to have a giant body of water, unused or untouched just sitting there.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Hash » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:58 pm

@shadowzz didn't have the time to read your long essays as usual but I skimmed through and wanted to clarify these false accusations you're making about me. I'm not dodging the Titan because tbh I love playing against top tier Titans. I'm dodging the shit lobby cuz I cba to play against a top tier Titan with 3 dlers and 4 ppl with like 10 games each, with the way exp feed rates are atm. I've played my fair share of games against foss, burn and shib on my main just cuz i dodge some shit lobbies doesn't mean I "dodge every single game they have against them to protect their elo" I would gladly play em any day of the week on my main with a good lobby.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby 1337hamburger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:16 pm

My two cents: I'll keep it short. Titan is way too easy, and getting even easier. . . that's bad.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Lynx » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:34 pm

ShadowZz You can't expect ID to have 50/50 win rates. Because every time a titan loses 10 players will get a win, thus inflating numbers asfk. You could argue that every time titan win 10 players will get a loss, but since ideal win rate is about 30 % Titan win, 70 % Builder win, they'll still be inflated.

Also ID players are all suckers for w/l and elo, thus they will dodge good builders when playing titan and dodge a good titan when playing builder. Combine this with players stacking lobbies vs poor titans they'll rack up unrealistic win rates.

TL;DR: Stats are deceiving

PS: Please stop using @Lynx while replying to a thread in Island Defense sub-forum. I'm subscribed to it and will read it when I have the time, getting an e-mail and a PM everytime is annoying.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby 1337hamburger » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:40 pm

well said @lynx

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby wastedlandering » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:48 pm

I'm gonna have to go with Lynx on this one. Although seeing stats is nice, you should take it with a pound of salt. Many titan's leave for builders elo, many builders play only in heavily stacked lobbies. Many of the games are also extremely one sided.
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