[0104] Current Version

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Stealer » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:50 pm

Well not sure any of these changes affect the polarization people talk about.


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Neco wrote:The game should not be balanced around suiciding your builder or leaving the game.

Which is why the exp rate changes when builders go down a man?
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Did you nerf some of the builders movement speed?
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I'm not too sure the new -UP works as expected. Click Sat then Random5 and got a random nat while nobody got sat.
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Defender buildings will now "neutralize" upon their Builder's death, or if the player leaves the game and no one takes over.

Makes more "logical" sense. I don't get why the towers stop attacking especially when shadowzz talks about it being useful for rewallers; shouldn't it be useful for rewallers in the other sense (towerer lags out, etc).
Stuff with attack should just stay as all-shared.
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Added a base to the bottom-left corner of the map.

Yay, titan has to walk even further to bases now after healing up.
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You ask for balance but your argument for it is that good titans stomp with 1-2 feeders. Well good job man, you guys genius. I mean who would have thought that a titan with 4000 games played should win vs a lobby with 3 noob feeders.

Given that a standard ID lobby has 10 retards in the builder slot, yes this is imbalance. More on this later.

Likewise, people like Fullmelthash should statistically only play vs titans like Shibumi, Fossurious, Burn etc but instead they dodge every single game they have against them to protect their ELO.

Statistically, shibumi/etc should not be playing the lobbies that hash dodges (and the lobbies that don't even have hash). The primary problem people have is that if you have a few bad players on either team the game is just shit. Bad titan = easy win, bad builder+decent/good titan = loss.
That and titan just needs to hit like lvl8, grab an AoF and cake-walk any super base.

Even versus a bad titan, you'll make a base and win the game but you know had the guy actually been able to use minis/get AoF/etc it would have been an easy loss. That game gets chalked into your winrate but it really should've been a loss.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Hash » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:00 am

Lynx wrote:ShadowZz You can't expect ID to have 50/50 win rates. Because every time a titan loses 10 players will get a win, thus inflating numbers asfk. You could argue that every time titan win 10 players will get a loss, but since ideal win rate is about 30 % Titan win, 70 % Builder win, they'll still be inflated.

Also ID players are all suckers for w/l and elo, thus they will dodge good builders when playing titan and dodge a good titan when playing builder. Combine this with players stacking lobbies vs poor titans they'll rack up unrealistic win rates.

TL;DR: Stats are deceiving

PS: Please stop using @Lynx while replying to a thread in Island Defense sub-forum. I'm subscribed to it and will read it when I have the time, getting an e-mail and a PM everytime is annoying.

agreed

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Charles410 » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:27 am

You should make it so if mak drops the transmute seashell on water it is not near impossible to pick up (: if you can do that.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Neco » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:26 am

0104c changelog out, map download to follow soon...

EDIT: As always, anyone is welcome to come to the Clan IDL Discord to discuss things, it's easier than using the forums most of the time.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Luna » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:39 am

this is an outrage
Saving lives during the day and crushing nerds at night. Put on this earth to retrieve panties for Sat. Not even Neco can fix me.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby BeeKauzh » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:40 am

@Shadowzz I love stats, here are my stats according to Neco's website:
BeeKauzh@USEast
Games Played
243
Defender Games
194/33 (232) 80%
Titan Games
11/0 (11) 100%
Time Spent In-Game
81h 32m 56s

Additional notes:
-I never pay attention to who is in the lobby. Both as titan and builder.
-I never dodge. (See above note)
-I always pick the sexy Firelord.
-I always try to win as titan.
-I tend to take every risks as builder.

That and titan just needs to hit like lvl8, grab an AoF and cake-walk any super base.
This + there is no ez way to win as builder right now.

Not as many games as others but 11/0 as titan. See above quote to know how2winastitan.
Heres how i siege: buy +armor items, grab titan and minion, right click walls and spam the heal button. Everyone can do this. Much skills, works everytime unless Quadbase with supporters.


IMO Yes titan is too strong, I feel like it is extremely hard to lose as titan in 103 pub games. I have yet to play 104 but this new neutralized buildings, while cool imo, seem to be a huge buff to titan.

As for official IH, I'm 3/1 as titan vs league players. Every game, I felt like I had a good chance of winning (above 70%) once i got 1 minion. Yup, 1. Even vs great & "insane" people as you call them, it requires very little to win, and just a little bit more to stomp them.
Titan doesn't need much to win.

I know how to play both sides and to me it seems that it's definitely harder to win as builder than titan, Even in IH (See above quote).

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby wastedlandering » Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:50 am

ShadowZz wrote:
The same people who stomp you as titan seem to have 0 issue stomping you harder with builder.


250% untrue. I generally think you have a point, but you are so damn wrong here, there are not enough words in all languages combined to describe how wrong this is.

ShadowZz wrote: It's simply that builders seem to play like trash and QQ at everyone else.

You can feel free to test it yourself but if you put these great titans in a balanced lobby their w/l ratio's fall down to 50% and below.


Somewhat true. I think 50-70% winrate would be about right for good titans vs good lobbys, maybe higher. The best titans could easily do better though (i.e. fishy_joes probably has like 98% winrate, tnfu similar). But this is all besides the point, because we're looking at most games, right?

ShadowZz wrote:
You ask for balance but your argument for it is that good titans stomp with 1-2 feeders. Well good job man, you guys genius. I mean who would have thought that a titan with 4000 games played should win vs a lobby with 3 noob feeders. I mean holy crap ID is imbalanced right? Really annoys me...



They don't even have to be blatant feeders though. One good base-break is literally enough to throw a game. The saying for farming elo used to be: 3+ good or dodge. Now it's 3+bads you dodge. Unless you know the titan and ask him to throw for you (common).

ShadowZz wrote:Likewise, people like Fullmelthash should statistically only play vs titans like Shibumi, Fossurious, Burn etc but instead they dodge every single game they have against them to protect their ELO.


Exactly why stats are the wrong way to interpret an accurate status quo.


ShadowZz wrote:The point is, ID is pretty balanced ( getting as close as possible really ) but there is no fucking way in hell to deal with the issue of an insane titan vs 6 pubs and 4 above average players. It's just not gonna happen and the sooner people stop whining about it and realize the reason why that's true, the better. To elaborate, if you nerf titan to deal with this problem then average players will simply lose every titan game due to only exceptional players being able to get a steady w/l. You either appease the majority (average players) or nerf titan into the ground for the 20 ish people who are at that skill level. You already have ridiculous w/l ratios with builders yet still find the time to whine about the 1 loss every 3/4 games you get against a good titan. It's ironic really...


No one is asking for Titan to be nerfed into the ground. I think a majority of people want to see this feature implemented. I think it will help average titans out a TON, and we want to see it work, I don't think many people are actually against this change. But to act like this isn't an absolutely massive buff is ignorant, and Titan was pretty damn strong already. Titan's massive learning curve is the reason most Titan's suck balls, we all know that, and this change is a step to making Titan a much better character to play.
FreePeterPan wrote: idiot neco didn't even implement blinky, how could you thank him? He had over a week to do it.


IamGiantRetard wrote:
Should someone come up with an (actual) idea for Blinky the Steamroller


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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Hash » Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:34 am

On a positive note glad to hear neutral building feed rate went from 75% to 50% and the Titan doesn't get 10 gold for the kill anymore. I think that's a great change to balance out neutralized buildings.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Sethy » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:06 am

BUG:

Mana void doesn't work on drae buildings.

(I think)
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby road-kill » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:38 am

Defender buildings will now "neutralize" upon their Builder's death, or if the player leaves the game and no one takes over.


Makes more "logical" sense. I don't get why the towers stop attacking especially when shadowzz talks about it being useful for rewallers; shouldn't it be useful for rewallers in the other sense (towerer lags out, etc).
Stuff with attack should just stay as all-shared.


For @stealer

when titan sieges a base, he takes incoming damage, his health is low, then he decides screw it I don't want feed, i'll kill builder so i don't do, I dont have tp, I don't have ww, so here we go builder dies, no more damage from towers... But if builder dies and towers still attacking titan... You know the rest.

@neco keep up the good work, just remember your ideas is as great as ours. note its still beta guys..

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Burn » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:01 pm

Just a minor fault in your stats @ShadowZz, it doesn't count the loss from leaving early after you know you clearly won and you don't want to hunt last builder. or leaving on an alt in order not to feed elo to clan-mates.

Pongu would definitely have a 90+ win rate even in 309d, let alone 4.x.x if he was still active. He played on his main and still managed to maintain his high elo.

Also, I'm sure I could maintain a 90%+ win rate as titan on an alt.

Also, how are you guaging a "good titan"?

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Stealer » Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:18 pm

road-kill wrote:
Defender buildings will now "neutralize" upon their Builder's death, or if the player leaves the game and no one takes over.


when titan sieges a base, he takes incoming damage, his health is low, then he decides screw it I don't want feed, i'll kill builder so i don't do, I dont have tp, I don't have ww, so here we go builder dies, no more damage from towers... But if builder dies and towers still attacking titan... You know the rest.


I don't see where the problem is. You put yourself into a shitty situation and ended up with shitty results. Tbh pretty sure i've seen games where projectiles killed titan after he got the builder (maybe not 4.0 games but def at least 9d).

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Sethy » Sat Apr 02, 2016 5:55 pm

This is a great change, @neco is listening to you guys when it comes to tweaking numbers to make it more balanced. The game changes, this was a great update which severely switched up the game and made it more refreshing. Stop referring to past versions about how things were, its a video game - it changes.
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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Lynx » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:24 pm

Of course we should use past versions as a point of reference when balancing numbers, doing otherwise would require more testing and time, neither of which no one wants to spend.

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Re: [4.0.0][0104] In Development

Postby Sethy » Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:29 pm

Lynx wrote:Of course we should use past versions as a point of reference when balancing numbers, doing otherwise would require more testing and time, neither of which no one wants to spend.


This is my point of view, but as a fairly new player - I couldn't care less about how the balance was in past versions. Neco can direct the game in whichever way he wants. From the consensus, it seemed like titan was much harder to play/win in 3.0.9. Maybe it's about time that Titan become the more favored team to win. It makes complete sense that this be the case in my opinion, considering the builder skill cap is lower than Titan, and to be honest the only way to increase this is through teamwork. By making titan a stronger role and removing anti-fun mechanics like suiciding, it's going to be much more rewarding as a builder to work with your team to win.

Sure Titan will be stomping pubs if this is the case, but wouldn't it be great if the community focused on teaching new builders and trained them towards winning instead of flaming one another?
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