Revamping the DIHL

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby cashmeoutside- » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:05 pm

HELLO! I've been away for a while and it's great to come back and see so many suggestions on how to make DIHL better.

From what I've read, the overarching theme is that DIHL is not as welcoming to new members as it should be. I agree. I think the crux of the problem is that new members are often AFK when new games are hosted. And, on the off-chance that they aren't AFK, the members that played the last game don't sit out to let new members try out.

I have 2 suggestions to address this problem.

1) Implement an official queueing system. Any member, new or old, who is waiting to join the next DIHL game can enter the queue. Whenever a new game is hosted, priority is given to players in this order: queued players, winners from last game, losers from last game.

2) Implement an auto-hosting bot. If DIHL games are hosted on an automatic basis (just like the apem and arem bots), any player (new or old) who is waiting for the next game can join and reserve their spot. Note: !votekick command should be implemented in case ppl join and AFK for too long (say 5 mins).

As of 5 days ago, we actually built our own unofficial queueing system. There is a bot called DIHLbot@USEast. If you whisper it ".addqueue yourusername", you will be added to the queue. When new games are hosted, we check this queue, whisper any players, and give them priority.

I think this is a step in the right direction.

HOWEVER, I think my second suggestion (implementing an auto-hosting bot) is actually best. This way there aren't players who mean to join the next game who miss out because they just so happen to be afk for a few minutes when the next game is hosted. Can we make this happen?

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby WolfPackMama » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:54 am

That's very unintuitional, the queue command.

How are you going to prevent non-DIHL/vouched members from joining hostbot games?
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby cashmeoutside- » Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:31 pm

The unofficial queuing system definitely isn't the ideal solution. We sorta just scrapped it together in a few hours. That said, I think it's been helping. We've had games going non-stop with many new players included this past week.

As a regular player myself, I've had to sit out for new players quite a few times over the past few days because of the queue.

As for vouching, I'd say that in general, there are enough players in each DIHL game that know who's new and whether they are vouched or not. We haven't had any problems with non-vouched members joining and causing problems. Granted, that might change down the road as DIHL progresses.

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby aRt)Y » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:39 pm

With two new moderators on board, hopefully the changes will be quickly implemented. :)

In regards to hosting, DIHL will be using the Discord system. Perhaps @hazardous could summarize it in a few sentences to give you an idea of it.

With that said, I would like to stress once again that being in Discord is necessary for the feature; if not only for discussing the changes and rules.
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby MuMiX » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:58 pm

I think one big point of having a 1300+ elo requirement is so that we know who we are playing with. It stops people from randomly making new accounts and pretending that they are new to DIHL. Of course, it is not necessarily a big indicator of skill, which is why we should have new players on probation period before they get officially/permanently vouched.

Cash, myself, and some others are actively working on an extensive guide and ruleset (including how to join games, how the lobby works, how player picks work, expectations in the game, in-game rules, etc.). Here's what we currently have:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13CT ... sp=sharing

Let me know if you have any feedback.

Thanks!

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby MuMiX » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:08 pm

Also, one of the problems with having too much automation and too much rules is it will actually stop new players from giving DIHL a shot. If I tell someone they HAVE to be 1300 elo, and they MUST get gproxy, and they MUST login to Discord, they will say 'f that' and go join another apem/arem game, even if they are highly skilled player. So I think some level of discretion by mods should be factored in, in these early phases of attempting to increase the player pool. The queue system works somewhat well in that we have a Game Owner (the person who starts the game is the only person who can issue commands in the game lobby), and we can kick anyone that we don't think should be in the game. But what often happens is that we get some random guy join with low ELO who doesnt care about gproxy/discord and we give him a shot anyway. We've been welcoming to pretty much any player as a means of 'tryout' for the league. Some players we let play again (i.e. informally 'vouch'), and other players we don't (no vouch).

Once we start to get too many players competing for spots, we'll have to cut down on letting just any ol' schmoe join the game. Some of the seasoned veterans do sometimes get annoyed by a random new player who isn't 'up to snuff'.
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby tinkertonker » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:13 pm

MuMiX wrote:I think one big point of having a 1300+ elo requirement is so that we know who we are playing with. It stops people from randomly making new accounts and pretending that they are new to DIHL. Of course, it is not necessarily a big indicator of skill, which is why we should have new players on probation period before they get officially/permanently vouched.

Cash, myself, and some others are actively working on an extensive guide and ruleset (including how to join games, how the lobby works, how player picks work, expectations in the game, in-game rules, etc.). Here's what we currently have:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13CT ... sp=sharing

Let me know if you have any feedback.

Thanks!


EXACTLY!

I dont even think you need it as high as 1300. In my experience anyone above 1200 has a good working knowledge of how the heroes work. Plus this prevents people from coming in and trolling people with new accounts. That is why I think that regular bots should not go beyond 1200 elo. There is no point. Gaining elo after 1200 elo is meaningless on regular bots.

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby Rain- » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:23 pm

https://docs.google.com/document/d/13CT ... sp=sharing
Seems like you guys been doing good work.
I believe elo is irrelevant as long as someone within dihl member can vouch the player that he is skilled enough to join the games.
I personally also want more strict system when player (Rage quit), (afk) in dihl since it is league standards must be higher since it ruins the game forall the players.

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby Brando » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:49 pm

MuMiX wrote:I think one big point of having a 1300+ elo requirement is so that we know who we are playing with. It stops people from randomly making new accounts and pretending that they are new to DIHL. Of course, it is not necessarily a big indicator of skill, which is why we should have new players on probation period before they get officially/permanently vouched.

Cash, myself, and some others are actively working on an extensive guide and ruleset (including how to join games, how the lobby works, how player picks work, expectations in the game, in-game rules, etc.). Here's what we currently have:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/13CT ... sp=sharing

Let me know if you have any feedback.

Thanks!


Everything looks decent but you should separate the actual in-game rules with the outside of game rules such as - rule #10, rule #11, rule #12 and rule #13 (can go both ways). Having 15 rules stacked together like that can get confusing especially when they aren't all for in-game. Also Urn bat should be banned not only because of the insane damage it does for no reason (unintended) icefrog himself patched this and was never put into dota 2 (and if he still patched wc3 this would surely be taken out). Also dont you think "has plenty of counters (heals / magic reduction / magic block)." can be said for ANY spell? Bat urn is clearly an exploit. Clockwork cogs actually takes a bit of skill to do and can be failed - much like an ES fissure block or a furion sprout. I do not think that is an exploit. Other than that looks fine.

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby WolfPackMama » Sun Jan 21, 2018 2:11 am

If I tell someone they HAVE to be 1300 elo, and they MUST get gproxy, and they MUST login to Discord, they will say 'f that' and go join another apem/arem game, even if they are highly skilled player.
It's more like 'f them'. You are building something from the grounds up, again. Exactly THAT type of attitude is not what you want for future DIHL games. If someone can't be arsed to dedicate one extra minute of their life for install GProxy, and 20 seconds to join Discord, what do you expect from that player in your games?

On a different note, giving "tryout" periods to any players who haven't vouched themselves is just plain idiocy. Sorry for cruel and sharp words, but it is. You're ruining the game for other nine players by allowing someone to have a demo version. Vouching is there for a reason. This isn't a learning ground, this is a ground for already experienced players to have a game on their skill level. If you're rebuilding the DIHL, why are you trying to boost quantity over quality? We're not turning to DIHL games because of quantity, we're playing them for quality of the games themselves. If you clean up the mess that's happening and show dedication, people will come by themselves. A lot of friends I'm playing with on public bots who are 1600+ are not playing DIHL because of the same reasons I've left it.

Excuse me for the rant, but I believe you're missing few crucial points here.
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby KingKar » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:19 am

^Wolfgirl
Not sure why you always have negative things to say about DIHL, Your attitute is not good ,
and clan BBA trying there best to make it fun for everyone. New Dihl has good experienced players,
have seen failures in the old one, so we learn from the mistakes and move on.
We will not have the same thing happen in the last DIHL and be destroyed.
Your ideas are terrible and you dont have enough experience to know how to do it.
Im King.

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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby WolfPackMama » Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:20 am

My attitude is fine. If you're accustomed to people who are sugarcoating their words, that's not really my problem. Nothing wrong with being sharp, precise, and concise. Yours, however, of telling me that my ideas are terrible and that I don't have enough experience, is a bad attitude. Talk about hypocrisy? I'll gladly take a suggestion or a throw-off if, and only if, you prove me wrong. But I believe you've said enough about yourself in that post.

The fact that I have negative things to say, means there's negative things to be told about. I am not sure are you familiar with the term of constructive criticism, but if you're not, it's alright. It's an adult thing anyways. It means to post a review about something in the purpose of finding weak spots, along with explanations on to why are they weak, and how can they be fixed. If you'd explained why was my idea terrible, like I explained why is quantity > quality a bad one, that'd be constructive criticism. As of right now, yours is just an insult without ground.

Now, enough with adulthood lessons. If you wish to discuss further, send me a PM.
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby not2000elo » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:09 am

WolfPackMama wrote:My attitude is fine. If you're accustomed to people who are sugarcoating their words, that's not really my problem. Nothing wrong with being sharp, precise, and concise. Yours, however, of telling me that my ideas are terrible and that I don't have enough experience, is a bad attitude. Talk about hypocrisy? I'll gladly take a suggestion or a throw-off if, and only if, you prove me wrong. But I believe you've said enough about yourself in that post.

The fact that I have negative things to say, means there's negative things to be told about. I am not sure are you familiar with the term of constructive criticism, but if you're not, it's alright. It's an adult thing anyways. It means to post a review about something in the purpose of finding weak spots, along with explanations on to why are they weak, and how can they be fixed. If you'd explained why was my idea terrible, like I explained why is quantity > quality a bad one, that'd be constructive criticism. As of right now, yours is just an insult without ground.

Now, enough with adulthood lessons. If you wish to discuss further, send me a PM.

Impressive, them 3 kids must be on point :)

I find myself in agreement with WolfPackMama. Every point she's made is fully viable here. DIHL *should* be an exclusive place where not everyone can play. Then and only then will it be worth it for people to make the extra effort to actually qualify.
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby aRt)Y » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:14 pm

WolfPackMama wrote:
MuMiX wrote: If I tell someone they HAVE to be 1300 elo, and they MUST get gproxy, and they MUST login to Discord, they will say 'f that' and go join another apem/arem game, even if they are highly skilled player.
It's more like 'f them'. You are building something from the grounds up, again. Exactly THAT type of attitude is not what you want for future DIHL games. If someone can't be arsed to dedicate one extra minute of their life for install GProxy, and 20 seconds to join Discord, what do you expect from that player in your games?

On a different note, giving "tryout" periods to any players who haven't vouched themselves is just plain idiocy. Sorry for cruel and sharp words, but it is. You're ruining the game for other nine players by allowing someone to have a demo version. Vouching is there for a reason. This isn't a learning ground, this is a ground for already experienced players to have a game on their skill level. If you're rebuilding the DIHL, why are you trying to boost quantity over quality? We're not turning to DIHL games because of quantity, we're playing them for quality of the games themselves. If you clean up the mess that's happening and show dedication, people will come by themselves. A lot of friends I'm playing with on public bots who are 1600+ are not playing DIHL because of the same reasons I've left it.

Excuse me for the rant, but I believe you're missing few crucial points here.
I do agree with you as well. Signing up to be part of a league should not be a casual "I will try it out"-action but something the player really wants.

Forcing players to use gproxy just makes sense... it's for the sake of everyone in-game or why would you take the risk of players disconnecting in league games? Also Discord is not a choice because the league system (aka signing up for games, hosting) is based on that platform. It's a technicality rather than an impulsive mood swing. I have written very long posts about Discord in regards for LIHL already, so I am not eager to repeat myself for DIHL (read it here).

Lastly, I do not see a point in having ELO restrictions as users apply to become part of the league and therefore, have to list replays, demonstrate his credibility based on current league players and/or having observed league games. You dont just accept him forever - it's a trial. Also, which high ranked DotA player would play apem.. bot activity aside.

The league's moderation focus should be on neutral things. Put together a procedure on how to apply, how signing up for games/playing the game works and which rules there are (which arent already covered by general rules) - dont restrict the player base from the getgo based on ELO (we all know it's meh) but rather the vouching process.
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Re: Revamping the DIHL

Postby Astros » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:46 pm

1) There aren't enough players who are interested and that's the bottleneck that determines the activity and standards of this. I know more than five really good players who refuse to play DIHL games because of some of the toxic nature involved. I haven't played in a while but came back and in my first game, was flamed and yelled at despite having a fairly decent game. It seems his friends on the team also supported his behavior and blamed me despite that individual making the costly mistakes that ended up costing the team. In another game, all I said was, "stun him" and my teammate muted me. This guy, who I will not name, was also toxic towards another player who simply said that he should stun and ward as he was playing a support role. In another game, this SAME individual is toxic towards two NEW players and they refused to play DIHL games after that. I saw this SAME individual in the next game. There's definitely a crew of players who are "untouchables."

2) Not enough emphasis on why they should play DIHL games. There are only a few who are truly interested but the majority would rather pub as they do not find playing a full support role and babysitting players entertaining. I think there should be an auto-message in all DotA games to advertise DIHL games.

3) Procedure to sign-up should have a high priority for those who have higher ELO and are obliging in their role in the game. Simply having an ambiguous ELO rank doesn't prove much. If someone wants to be the super-geek, it would probably be informative if you guys create a video showing how a certain role should play. It shouldn't take more than a few minutes detailing what a role should do.
A) Show a support warding certain spots.
B) Using a proper smoke to gank.
C) When to roam and when not to.

It would certainly clear up indifferences to the game.

4) The queue system Cash developed is fairly decent but I can see how confusion can amass. Sometimes players will queue up and then not show up when the game is created - which has led to some disagreement(s). I'm not sure how you can rectify that at this point but it is definitely worth improving.

5) I have a few CD keys that I really don't need. If someone has a use for them and has an idea on improvements requiring a CD key, let me know.

6) There should be designated captains who have to apply and get approval. These captains (the two who were in the previous match) should have priority to the games even if they win or lose. If there aren't enough captains online, it would then make sense to have a volunteer but usually, there are at least two captain-qualified players. I don't want to sound cruel but there are a few who really shouldn't be captains. Even if there are only 3-4 captains for the entire league, it would lead to better games and hopefully, the rest of the guys who want to be a captain could actually have to figure out the role of it. There are more than a few games where it is clearly lopsided and the inevitable would be a 35 min game that no one finds fun at all.

7) Some players are just not very accepting of their role. I get that the support role is boring but if you are assigned it, it probably means you are the best option for it. The hesitation to want to ward and or sacrifice for the team is common in these games. Like I said, when the rest of the team has to tell a certain player to stun or ward for the greater duration of the game, then there really isn't a game to be played. Playing a support role is vital to a team's progression but it seems that it comes secondary to a select few.

8) GProxy should absolutely be a requirement. It takes seconds and avoids the assertion that you are a leaver while also keeping 5v5 games alive. I live in NYC and Spectrum is the only option available to me. The odds I get dropped are probably 10% due to a sudden interference that lasts probably two seconds. I would not be surprised if it is the reason for most disconnections but I don't see why more people don't have them when it is available for their benefit.

9) There should be a clan so everyone can keep track of all the DIHL players. It's much easier to relocate into a channel and have a list of active players at the moment than it is for someone to continuously scout AREM games and whisper them. It's ineffective and kinda annoying.

10) I think it's disgusting that some of these guys continuously bash certain people who have been trying their best to make improvements. The game in itself is a dead one. There are maybe 20 active DIHL players in total. I applaud some of these individuals for putting in some time into creating something for the rest of the pack. From my personal experience, yes, these games can be frustrating and a total bore but under the right circumstances, they are far more competitive and enticing than a pub game with 7/10 euro players. Some of you guys just enjoy feeling the victim. I've been obs/sat out when asked and voluntarily do so. If I see a player hasn't played and I really don't feel the urge to play, I let them play. I think this league should do the same. It seems many are lacking that decency and would absorb a spot simply because they have seniority in this league. Again, not pointing fingers but they know who they are.

I'm probably a bit off and have a different experience than the rest of you guys as I have not been playing as much as the rest of the individuals but the obvious fact is: DotA 1 is not getting more players and the odds a random pub wants to play a more competitive game is very slim - which is why this league indirectly favors familiarity with those who have played in this league for quite some time.
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