game outcome nulled

[supersexyy]

Intentional PP will result in an unvouch, just making that clear.

[Furbolg.]

@Eldryan its a general point.

[dweiler]

In the past, Duckie and me have had arguments with iight and beep about this very topic as well. They have always claimed drawing after someone discs is more fair than not drawing. As we can see here, this calls for debate. There is one important reason, that is that drawing is not strategy-proof.

What this means is: drawing when one discs in a team is fair. This is true, because the remaining team members get an unfair disadvantage because of the disconnect. But, when someone is losing, he can plug, and avoid the disc. He can also do it more subtle: Eldryan states there is no strategy when someone has a 3k ping, but there are ways to up your ping (for example, start your torrent client and start a heavy download). The point of the matter is: when one plays it smart, it is impossible to ever prove that he discs strategically. So, there are situations (and those situations will roughly be there 100% of the games for one of the teams) in which disconnecting is beneficial for both you and your team and thus drawing is not strategy proof. It is a good thing that you all point out that intentional disconnecting will lead to an unvouch, but I also think we all know we cannot prove when this is the case.

My point of avoiding this matter is: don't make drawing compulsory. In fact, it is undesirable to ever draw. Although in individual games you might have an unfair disadvantage, in the long run everyone is likely to have about the same amount of bad luck. However, if half of the games are drawed and half aren't, those percentages may vary in negative or positive ways for different players. The rule should be: when the game has started, it will be played out: of course unless all players agree to draw (but not because of etiquette). In other words, when we avoid drawing, the effect of disconnecting is ruled out. This does not go for the person who disconnects, of course, and I think it is a good thing, because disconnecting is discouraged in this way. After all, it is a form of game ruining. In any given case, disconnecting can not be advantageous for your team and therefore this way of handling the disconnect is strategy-proof.

I know there have been flame wars between iight, beep, duckie and me in this different way of approaching the 'drawing' matter. However, given the growing discontent in the community abuot drawing, I think it is right to show my opinion on this matter. Not drawing is in fact not unfair, because bad luck will even out across time, and it is strategy-proof, whereas drawing does not have this quality.

To be sure, I am not saying Beep is intentionally disconnecting, just making a general claim to avoid situations like this.

[supersexyy]

Or we can give an ELO penalty to DCers

[eldryan]

@mickeythemouse the whole point of gproxy is to remove disconnects. there shouldn't be d/cs. however, if someone disconnects and their team is WAY AHEAD, they still lose. you can argue where they were after the disconnect. yeah, "plug pulling" can be faked into "d/c", but it would be impossible to do what Beep did - lag out while still in game (I did /whois and he hadn't dced), even with torrenting your torrents would crash first. and screwing over someone's team while in middle of contest because one person was nervous isn't legit at all, regardless if the d/c was on purpose.

[dweiler]

@Supersexxy, this would be an improvement, yes, but still not strategy-proof. This is so because the ELO-loss will not be disadvantageous for the disconnecter, he will still lose the same amount of ELO as when he had stayed, but advantageous for his allies. Suppose the friends A and B are 2 games in the same team and losing, if A fakes a disc in game 1, and B in game 2, they will both have saved eachother 1 loss and (about) 15 elo. Again, not saying this is happening, but you rule out the chance of this happening if you don't draw.

@eldryan, I agree, disconnect is a basic presupposition in the game. Just as you have to have a legal copy of wc3, you have to have a working internet connection.

But it isn't true that if you are way ahead and someone disconnects that you lose. Your lead will be lessened or even disappear, but there is no causal relationship between a disconnect and a loss. In fact, I can be teamed with beep and he can have his shittiest game in years, leaking every round and being able to up wood. In this case his disconnect can even be an advantage for the team
BUT - in the long run everyone will experience something like this, sometimes you get unlucky and sometimes lucky, this will rule eachother out in the long run. Of course, some may be luckier than others, but I think Feor had elite archers every game I played vs him and Dortmund scored the winning goal in the last minute vs Malaga while 4 players were off side. This is just to say that circumstances will always be lucky or unlucky for someone. The point I want to make with this is: if you got this bad luck you are talking about it is unintentional good/bad luck, whereas pulling the plug is intentional. You should not confuse the unintentional bad luck with the intentional game ruining. I think we want to rule out the intentional game ruining by disconnecting, the effect is that some teams get unintentionally lucky/unlucky. Again, the latter is not unfair. 1. because it is unintentional, 2. because it rules eachother out in the long run.

[eldryan]

@Supersexxy, this would be an improvement, yes, but still not strategy-proof. This is so because the ELO-loss will not be disadvantageous for the disconnecter, he will still lose the same amount of ELO as when he had stayed, but advantageous for his allies. Suppose the friends A and B are 2 games in the same team and losing, if A fakes a disc in game 1, and B in game 2, they will both have saved eachother 1 loss and (about) 15 elo. Again, not saying this is happening, but you rule out the chance of this happening if you don't draw.

@eldryan, I agree, disconnect is a basic presupposition in the game. Just as you have to have a legal copy of wc3, you have to have a working internet connection.

But it isn't true that if you are way ahead and someone disconnects that you lose. Your lead will be lessened or even disappear, but there is no causal relationship between a disconnect and a loss. BUT - in the long run everyone will experience something like this, sometimes you get unlucky and sometimes lucky, this will rule eachother out in the long run. Of course, some may be luckier than others, but I think Feor had elite archers every game I played vs him and Dortmund scored the winning goal in the last minute vs Malaga while 4 players were off side. This is just to say that circumstances will always be lucky or unlucky for someone. The point I want to make with this is: if you got this bad luck you are talking about it is unintentional good/bad luck, whereas pulling the plug is intentional. You should not confuse the unintentional bad luck with the intentional game ruining.

yea, that's assuming they're on the same team every time, except the game is a-bal, so it can't really be planned correctly. most of the time players are playing against their friends. however, even were 2 ppl to assume this beneficial trade-off, they'd lose half a game each during an unfinished game: and they probably had about 1/2 a chance to win when they plug pulled. it would also be relatively easy to spot such a scheme, as you'd see the same 2 ppl d/cing every time they teamed up in alternating order (lol).

[supersexyy]

We're not limited to an ELO penalty equal to a loss.

[dweiler]

@Eldryan, no, you can do it do it two weeks after each other and having played in different team 30x between those games. You just have to make sure you keep doing it in such a way that you have an advantage. I know a loss is not 100% but this is not really relevant, since the point is you don't get a loss. If you think you are losing and you disc it is never disadvantageous (meaning a loss and ELO loss for your team) for you - because it is 100% sure you do not lose or lose ELO. If your strategy is you do not want to lose ELO when you are losing, our drawing system provides you for that. Besides, in the LIHL people are so experienced and skilled that people do not think they are losing when they have 50% chance of winning. I would rather say this goes down to 10% or 5%, in which case pulling the plug is heavily advantageous again.

I don't think it is easy to see when you do it smartly. Imagine, for example, doing it just 1 out of the 5 games you play with eachother. This will probably be 3 or more weeks in between (if I take me and duckie, we haven't even played 5 games together yet I think). You will then gain 10% ELO and have 10% less losses with each other, which might make a big difference in the top. And to repeat, in the current system it is even easier, because you don't get a loss/elo loss as disconnecter too, so if you decide to disc every 8 games you are losing (or so), you might get a huge advantage which is untraceable.

Again, not saying this is happening - but why take this risk while my alternative is just as good on all other points, but has the advantage of being strategy proof.

EDIT: I see Supersexyy's comment now - I guess it would be an improvement again But then again, you punish unintentional disconnecters harshly then.

[BeepBoopBeep]

So furbolg himself actually made me aware of this, he w/ me that he had a complaint against him and that he genuinely didn't know about the !draw.

in LIHL11j, the etiquette for LIHL was breached and a player didn't draw after a dc in a 3v3. Obviously, this absolutely fucked the team of 2 on lvl 20. The player's excuse was he'd drawn earlier that day, and wanted the Win against an easy 3v2. He was the only one who wanted....

He did draw another game before where infact his own team DC'd but he did not know about rule to !draw.

The rule furbolg violated was "Refusing to !draw the game when you are the only player who has not voted"

I have spoken to furbolg myself not to mention that he made me aware of this whole thing and made things clear to him. If everybody is in agreement to draw, besides yourself you MUST by the rules draw with the majority group.

If this game would be annulled, it'd help even the standings and remove this not-quite-cheating result.

As for this as far as im aware, only a RED admin has the power to do this.

[dweiler]

@BeepBoopBeep

Can you please respond to my suggestion for changing the drawing system, on the basis of the arguments I have mentioned?

As you probably know, you are the one who is mostly accused of this 'strategical disconnecting'. Being an admin and a player with honour I am sure you want this suspicion to be gone. The only way to do this is to not draw anymore. Am I right in thinking that you, as an admin, would be in favour of my change in the rules? And if not, I am very curious why not (considering my arguments).

[GoatsBeGone]

Man so much to read here, anyways, I thought you made the rules to be hournered, and as I see it, (whether or not beep dc on purpose) the rule says: no instant !draw will result in unvouche, Idk if the dc is intentionelly or not, but one thing I know is that it ruins the game, when people break the rules, which Furbogl did in this game..

[supersexyy]

EDIT: I see Supersexyy's comment now - I guess it would be an improvement again But then again, you punish unintentional disconnecters harshly then.

And your suggestion punishes the three (innocent) people on the disconnector's team.

[dweiler]

I do not know if this is needed (AGAIN) but this is not true:

And your suggestion punishes the three (innocent) people on the disconnector's team.

AGAIN
1. I do not punish them, because it is likely that everyone will have the same bad and good luck over a longer period of time. Therefore, no one is benefited and just 1 person is punished: the person disconnecting.
2. You tend to forget that a lot of people feel frustrated when they play a won game and someone disconnects and they have to draw (especially if they are the only one feeling this way). They are punished by our current system and by your suggestion, they are not punished by my suggestion. In this way, in your way of thinking you punish 4 innocent people (the other team) with an opponents disconnect and benefit 3 innocent people. Then STILL your solution isn't numerically the best.
3. They are not punished because they just have bad luck. If I play with Beep and has an extraordinary bad game, so much that it is worse to have him on the team than that he disconnects I get punished because he stays in the game. We are not gonna draw that too because I get 'punished', are we? Disconnecting is a fact of wc3, and it is fair as long as we do not draw because everyone will have to deal with it.
4. All the arguments I said before.

Please, again, I want Beep to respond to my previous question.

[supersexyy]

1. Both our solutions punish the disconnector, just that mine is more direct.
2. Its quite rare to win a game 3v4 (nearly always ends up being a waste of time and boring for all).
3. Irrelevant.