Meshtar

schrumpfi · Postby **schrumpfi** » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:58 pm

Just had today a game with Meshtar. I dont care at this point if he cost us the game or not but his behaviour after the game for a new vouched guy is a bit confusing. Several people argued to him that he should at some point maybe listen to more experianced players and so on and he acted like he is the one guy knowing this game. I have no problem with people making fails or being new to the game and not so experianced, but ignoring every advice and arguing against several other people is maybe not the best way for a new vouched guy to do. Since this lihl games need a team on each side, it is very problematic to play the own game, dont looking or listening to the other players in ur team and afterwards giving all the responsebility for the game to the others. I think Meshtar really needs to learn more about strategies in certain situations and respect for the strategies, calls and builds of other players, especially when talking about it after the game finished. I make this post because we had a really long and emotional discussion in discord and i really dont want to play games like this in lihl, if i want to do my own thing without listening to the others i can go mega or 1200, and even there players have to listen and respect team descitions and calls. I hope this post will make him think a bit about his manner cause if this dont change i will start to report games like the last one.

Meshtar · Postby **Meshtar** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:10 am

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 860800.w3g

Look at the replay and make your own judgement about how I played, about schrumpfi's manners, calls, and the reason why the game was lost.

I am always, always open for advice of any kind if its done in a mannered way,but that also doesn't mean I will follow it always. There are several people in lihl whose advice I always follow even when I don't agree with it. I'd like @1007 @TinSoldier and some more to speak if it isn't so. I'm about to go to work so I can't post a detailed comment on the game decisions but hopefully I will later.
Also I want to point out briefly some parts of schrumpfi's post which simply aren't true.
"Several people argued to him that he should at some point maybe listen to more experianced players and so on and he acted like he is the one guy knowing this game"
This is simply a fabrication of his mind. It was only him spamming me about it as you will see in replay, nill3 added some points in a mannered way, unlike schrumpfi, with which i didn't really agree yet I was already triggered but schrumpfi's way so I am not sure if I even payed enough attention to it anyway. Then in lihl chat the same thing continued again with same 2 people schrumpfi spam and clearly annoyed nill3 (still mannared though) who called me 100% reason of loss right away even if he later changed his opinion probably when he cooled off a bit. Fate was also included in the talk later but he wasn't in the game and hasn't seen anything, so he spoke only generally. There were no several people talking to me about anything. Tom who was in the team on our side stayed silent and even at one point in game defended me by saying he doesn't mind my second wc if i remember correctly or something liek that. That was all he spoke.
I'll add more thought to this later, now I'm actually late for work writing this

FadingSuns · Postby **FadingSuns** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:56 am

@mesthar u are focusing onnlittle details but ur not paying attention to the message...

The other day i got so mad at you because 2 things:

1) u hardly tried control my line
2) u freely said "idk wtf is ace doing"

I dont know who you think you are to speak like that rlly, you should control the way u communicate ur view specially when you are a recent new vouch. U tend to think you are always in possesion of the thruth and you pretend to be a Tinsoldier 2.0.

I still see you keep having the same issue with other players, its not a isolated problem and if this keep repeating we will have to do "something"

Reduce ur ego and listen to experienced players... ur not in a position to give advices or correct others builds, ur not in position to not listen a team call... ur rlly new and weak player atm. Until you realize of it you will keep having issues.

Im also at work and might add more later

Meshtar · Postby **Meshtar** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:52 am

I wanted to keep that case away from this one, just not to create drama, but you brought it up so I won't ignore it now.

In that game Ace, you were quiet I would say distracted whole game barely ever spoke. Haza and I discussed strategies with you keeping total silence. Finally haza called 15 and we followed, its just your build that didn't go along with that call and at one point I said exactly this "No offense, but I don't know what Ace is doing" meaning his build and staying 7 5 didn't correspond with the call made. Then you went ballistic on me called me different insults and names and also continued maybe even worse in lihl chat when i didn't respond with any insult whatsoever.
http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 837206.w3g
That is the game in question, see for yourself and decide who did what.

In all honesty, I know what it is about me that ticks off you and some other players. Its because I talk, try to discuss tactics instead of acting like your idea of a new guy behavior should be. You think i should shut up, listen and bow to experienced lihlers no matter what they say or do. Well that isn't who I am. I respect and like plenty of people in lihl, both as players and human beings and I know I have plenty to learn from many of them. I also want to point out that even if I am new to lihl, I am certainly not new to this game, been playing it for years I even joined this forum before some of "experienced" lihlers I just waited long to join this particular community. So, as much as I respect people with plenty of lihl experience, I would like to point out that people who are new to lihl aren't complete morons and you shouldn't treat them like they are. With a little manners and a proper way you can go very far with me and get me to play any way the teams wants. I already played plenty of games here so anyone can look through the chat or watch the replays and see if I am cooperative or not, also other players can speak their opinion.

Diablo_ · Postby **Diablo_** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:52 am

FadingSuns wrote:Reduce ur ego and listen to experienced players... ur not in a position to give advices or correct others builds, ur not in position to not listen a team call... ur rlly new and weak player atm. Until you realize of it you will keep having issues.

Being new doesn't mean he can't have or communicate his own opinion ace xd

Jamo · Postby **Jamo** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 12:17 pm

It's really always the same here in lihl when there is a new vouch who is a good player and also has some strong opinions, like many old players have as well. lihl people also always think their way is the only right one and a new vouch always have to follow their exact way and everything else is wrong. This happens all the time. Considering also in lihl people tell you different things all the time, because there is no such thing like one right play in most of the cases, I think this is just an lihl ego thing. You know, you can also be open for new or different stuff. And even if you are right, maybe he has to find out for himself...
I think Mesh is a really good player, way ahead of a lot of people here in lihl. Same for his manners, which imo are also way ahead of many people... Just wanted to say this, since there is someone bashing him, can also be someone supporting him.
When reading the chat, I also don't think he "acted like the one player knowing the game" but he just told you why he thought what he did was the right thing, nothing more. But sure I agree with you, that this is a team game, and when the team calls one should follow it, but I don't think that was the problem in this game tbh.

edit: And yes, I totally agree with Dia!

dweiler · Postby **dweiler** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 2:56 pm

if i want to do my own thing without listening to the others i can go mega or 1200, and even there players have to listen and respect team descitions and calls.

This goes for yourself as well, you first threatened Meshtarius that you will flame him if he leaks when he does not do what you want. Later both n1ll3 and Tom said it was fine, but you seem to be unable to teamplay by accepting that someone else makes a different choice than you.

In case you don't understand: nobody is obliged to listen to you. Teamplaying doesn't mean that you control other lanes and they have to do what you want, it means that you have 4 individuals who play in their own way and they try to win together. Advices are helpful, forcing people to play your way is out of the question.

Also @FadingSuns , i agree with what others say here, it's quite ridiculous to tell Meshtarius that he cannot call because he is new. Everyone is equal in LIHL and we play it TOGETHER, as long as someone is trying to teamplay and trying to help with their comments, it is always welcome. Maybe you two have a history and he controlled in other games, but it is not weird to say he doesn't get what you are doing if your teammates agreed to push and you didn't. Maybe you had a reason, but you can explain that in a normal way. His comment was polite and you responded in a really bad way. In my opinion you are lucky Mesthar did not report this.

Spoiler!

Kreutertee · Postby **Kreutertee** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:31 pm

Jamo wrote:It's really always the same here in lihl when there is a new vouch who is a good player and also has some strong opinions, like many old players have as well.

I think it comes down to that. Having an opinion while being new-vouch can be troublesome for two simple reasons.

1) The majority of old LIHLers hate new vouches and their opinions.
2) The majority of new vouches are already stoked about being (trial) vouched and might sadly get even cockier then to all our disadvantage. They think they can carry on in LIHL like in their 1200 success story. Sometimes it works out for them, mostly it does not tho in my experience.

Well, it's a homemade problem. If old and new vouches were a tad more open to the respective others situation, there wouldn't be as much trouble.

The most difficult thing for new vouches is to get to know LIHL players, cause quite many only play LIHL and are barely seen on 1200. Get to know the people, learn how they play, learn who is better, learn who to listen to, learn who not to listen to. And all that usually takes a season or two.

Bottom line, new vouches are of course entitled to their opinion and may contribute to make calls like every other team member, but maybe being quiet once in a while and just "suck it up" can also be beneficial.

Cause either way, you learn something (for the prize of some + or - Elo)
1) Who to listen to
2) Who not to listen to

Cheers.

TinSoldier · Postby **TinSoldier** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 3:56 pm

FadingSuns wrote: you pretend to be a Tinsoldier 2.0.

seems you got a bright future ahead of you in LIHL m8

Don_Killuminati · Postby **Don_Killuminati** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:14 pm

The worst thing in LIHL is when a player with lower skill/knowledge than yours keep arguing over and over or even refuse to follow any calls.
I'm not saying that a recent vouch should not be able to communicate but the opposite here, they should be able to communicate + adapt from team calls.
Regarding Meshtar, I have never encountered any problems with, much better, in the 10 games i played with him i found his ability to adapt quiet good, and i even remember him saving us with a call 14 that we did follow after debate.

FateStayNight · Postby **FateStayNight** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:01 pm

i dont like that you guys always point out that it can be difficult for those who are new, dont make calls etc.
For example if im tired i dont play anymore because when im tired i dont like to call that much. But usually if u dont call as red/yellow its getting a mess, especially when calls arent obvious, which they are not in most of the cases.
Its always easier to just play his lane i would like to do so aswell but if u want to win it just doesnt work, there are some exceptions like teachrolls, hes like 100% focus on the game, if all the others would do the same, there would be way less trouble. And if ur not sure what to build just ask. I just wrote this to show you there are 2 sides in this story, 1 guy who has the pressure of making calls all game and then those who get annoyed when they were told what to build.

back to topic: I like Meshtar and i think hes a decent new vouch, but hes really vurnable to critism, where others people dont even think about it 1 level after he takes it even into discord. Its normal that people blame you sometimes for obvious mistakes, then just say sry and everything is fine.

FadingSuns · Postby **FadingSuns** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:16 pm

Meshtar wrote:I wanted to keep that case away from this one, just not to create drama, but you brought it up so I won't ignore it now.

In that game Ace, you were quiet I would say distracted whole game barely ever spoke. Haza and I discussed strategies with you keeping total silence. Finally haza called 15 and we followed, its just your build that didn't go along with that call and at one point I said exactly this "No offense, but I don't know what Ace is doing" meaning his build and staying 7 5 didn't correspond with the call made. Then you went ballistic on me called me different insults and names and also continued maybe even worse in lihl chat when i didn't respond with any insult whatsoever.
http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 837206.w3g
That is the game in question, see for yourself and decide who did what.

Sure i reviewed the reply 2 times so u better be sure what u talking about.

We are Hazard, Dodo, u and me on team

(16:14 / Allied) HazarDous: me n u push hard dodo

Lets see how is each one at arena time minute (21 with 48 secs):

ACE: 1730 value, 87 income, 7/5, 388 gold hidden (for a total of 2100+ value for arena time), 312 wood.

MESTHAR: 1670 value, 83 income, 7/4, 179 gold hidden (for a total 1850 value with 1 less push), 317 wood.

Then u come with this:

(21:44 / Allied) Meshtarius: need push tbh
(21:47 / Allied) Meshtarius: noone holds 15

LIKE WTF? im 2100 value with 7/5 and hades turret meliai and specters!!! OFC IMMA TRY HOLD!

(22:11 / Allied) Meshtarius: need
(22:13 / Allied) Meshtarius: build anti 14

(24:49 / Allied) HazarDous: dude
(24:54 / Allied) HazarDous: we dont die 14

¿?¿?¿?¿? we rape 14 and we even have 4 heals

(25:59 / Allied) Meshtarius: no offense but not getting what ace is doing either
(26:06 / Allied) Meshtarius: we waner push and outsend

In this momment of time (25:59) its lvl 12 and im 2380 value with 376 value on the box. I got 1492 wood and 7/5
Mesthar: 1950 value, 7/6, 1527 wood and 329 gold on the box.

SRSLY: why u even talk like that when ur doing a pure tk pure performance and im the only realistic option to ez mid 15? who do u think you are to talk like that?

I didnt talk to him in all way in a bad mod, i didnt even try to create any drama, but this guy comes to talk to me like that when he is doing a pure shit performance like if he was the best player ever existed. WTF?

BTW i didnt leak a single lvl this game.

Then im critized because ofc i get mad about this noob trying to be tin 2.0 when he is doing really bad game and its me that i dont let new vouches talk? Look, i dont care if u give ur view, but u need to respect rest, specially when ur a low skilled player (that u are) and u are talking to someone that is CLEARLY playing better than u the game. So please, stop ur little child talking and put facts over the table.

Now its me how invite rest of lihl players with Mesh words: "That is the game in question, see for yourself and decide who did what"

This pure no sense claim from u @mesthar, and dont try confuse rest, u caved ur own hole, i didnt nothing to you and u start acting rlly bad, ofc ima defend myself when i see a nab trying bully me.

Meshtar · Postby **Meshtar** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:33 pm

You are the one simply not getting it Ace. This isn't even about if it was right for you to stay and try hold, or to push and clog as I argued and thought that no one can mid 15. You were tk silent whole game, not even acknowledging anything we talked about. You just needed to say i am holding 15 and i wouldn't even try to argue it, instead you stayed silent and left us confused and when I politely commented you just threw all the insults at me.

This is only about you throwing worst insults around while being a mod who should represent a calm and mannered person and give example to others. If I did those insults to you as a regular player I would have been unvouched and they would be right to do it. You being a mod should suffer even bigger consequences, because you represent lihl and ent maybe even, so standards should be even higher for you.

Meshtar · Postby **Meshtar** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:41 pm

FateStayNight wrote:back to topic: I like Meshtar and i think hes a decent new vouch, but hes really vurnable to critism, where others people dont even think about it 1 level after he takes it even into discord. Its normal that people blame you sometimes for obvious mistakes, then just say sry and everything is fine.

I never brought anything to discord. I didn't say a thing in game or in discord about thinking 12 call was tk as it obviously was. it was first nill3 and schrumpfi who started the discord talk with blaming me for everything. I am not a person who thrives in conflict especially in a place which should be made for fun and competition. I never report anyone, I think I did 2 ban requests at most in all these years of playing this game. Anyway, this keeps going in circles so maybe better put it to rest. Just to make things clear, even if I think that call costs us the game, I wouldn't think to blame or flame nill3 for it. Calls are the hardest part of the game as we all know, and he is still better at them than I am as he is in other aspects of the game also.

FadingSuns · Postby **FadingSuns** » Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:46 pm

I dont respect ppl that dont respect me, u trully showed full disrespect. Yes im mod, but im also a person, i got feelings, and i defend myself when i feel unfairly attacked.

Feel free to post a complain with me being mod.

Meshtar

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