sell 210 to push

[KiwiLeKiller]

Straight from Discord:
"You cannot sell more than 200 value, period. If you sell a nightmare on level 7 in order to suicide, but build back the difference, the rule is broken" - HazarDous

[dweiler]

Thanks, I will post a message on Discord to make sure everyone is aware of the updated rules.

So:
selling 3 meat is ok or not ok?
selling 3 engi is ok or not ok?
Selling nm on race level in order to clog, when for example you also have 2 turret to sell is ok or not ok?

I really don't understand why we want so blurry lines on the ruleset when it can be made so easy? Cause don't sell more than 200g is really very simple. And I can't understand why people argue against it. It's the same rule for everyone, it concerns one or two units / situations whereas an irrevocable rule would solve all these uncertainties, and make live much easier for both mods and players?

For me it is as simple as you, selling more than 200g is not allowed period.

People referring to precedents being set that Nightmares et cetera were allowed, I made this new set of rules because people asked for more clear rules, instead of not knowing what to expect. That is why I proposed to rewrite the rules that were not very clear, but can easily be very clear this way. I did not expect anyone to have problems with this, since the rule was not being disputed when I proposed it and no comments.

[FadingSuns]

as u can see we are still discussing the cases. For me, selling that u cant since u can sell them sepparately. In the case of nm or a upped t2 that sums a little more than 200 then i would say u can. how much is wagon upped? 210? i would allow also to sell him, again we could talk case by case. If u got 3 upped wagons only u cant suicide? if u got 2 upped wagos and 3 non up wagos?

thats why i would go case by case and also would ask to all to apply comon sense. This example scenario:

1) a guy has 3upped wagons and nothing else. I might see no issues on him selling since he wanna suicide for X reason and cant sell more than that.

2) a guy has 2 upped wagons and 3 non up. then he might get a ban or warning to sell the upped wagon since he got more shit to sell (talking on a 200 sell for race lvl)

Anyway. If the guy with 2 upped wagons and 3 small decides to suicide on lvl 4 and start selling on lvl 5. I would not mind of him selling those 2 upped wagons on lvl 8 and 9 because it was the rest of his pending value and he wants suicide.

So after this it comes to:

1) i might ban a guy selling 3 wagons to clog on race lvl
2) i might not ban a guy selling 1 upped wagon on a send lvl when he got nothing lower to sell
3) i might not ban a guy selling upped wagon when he is selling value to push and has nothing else to sell.

As i said, its all based on each case and ofc on common sense. Selling upped wagon can sometimes be an abuse and others be a need... we cant say this is white or black with having 1 single rule for all the possible cases. Not every point mentioned on this post can be taken as an abuse. There are cases and cases.

[dweiler]

But what you are saying now is exactly what people don't want, that they don't know what to expect, but are dependent of the moderators judgment. We can go on, zeus is 215 value, same as nightmare, can sell it? If he just made 3 infantries instead he could sell for lower than 200 gold. Pyro allowed? It's 230 gold. Spawn of dragon allowed? Can't sell it, but is also 1 unit. Moonguard allowed? If you got TK roll and you can only build moonguard, it is unfair you cannot sell him.

If you look at your answer, it is already 3 different outcomes on 1 single rule. How do you expect people to know what to expect then?

I don't know what is the problem with making a clear boundary, everyone knows then and people don't have to go inside of the head of a moderator to see how he would think on allowing or not allowing the sell.

[FadingSuns]

because i think that not in every case a sell of a bit more of 200 value is an abuse. Where to put the limit is hard to say i agre. But having a fixed rule is also a limit for this case. I dont see whats the abuse of having 1 player with 210 value in total in lvl 15 vs having him with 0 value because he couldnt send the wagon he upped on lvl 3. Thats for me an extreme no sense.

[FadingSuns]

is selling a upped wagon more abuse than sell a cyborg?

[dweiler]

Okay, I agree with that. But if everyone knows you cannot sell an upped meatwagon, is it not just easy for everyone to stick to it? Everyone knows it's hard to define a limit, but not giving a limit makes everyone wonder: "can I sell this? What will Ace and Mick think of this, is it abuse or not?".

If we just say 200 is the limit, or 250 is the limit, then it's clear for everyone.

What if you say 'it's common sense', and you get a report of someone selling Moonguard as his last unit. You say, 300 gold is 100 gold more than 200, 50% more sell, that is way too much, you will get an unvouch. And the other says 'it's common sense that I can sell it, it's my only unit, I can't sell half moonguard. Isn't it unfair that because I rolled moonguard I can't sell, but if I rolled nightmare I can sell?' You just get into needless discussions. If you say, the limit was 200, you knew it, we have that rule, discussion is over and he knows he is wrong.

You can see here the LIHL players also ask for that, because it is much clearer. I don't think any of them say it is 'objectively' a good point to draw the line at 200, but it is clear and they know what to expect.

And of course, if there is a point which makes more sense (like 230g or sth) we can change the rule to that.

[FadingSuns]

But what you are saying now is exactly what people don't want, that they don't know what to expect, but are dependent of the moderators judgment. We can go on, zeus is 215 value, same as nightmare, can sell it? If he just made 3 infantries instead he could sell for lower than 200 gold. Pyro allowed? It's 230 gold. Spawn of dragon allowed? Can't sell it, but is also 1 unit. Moonguard allowed? If you got TK roll and you can only build moonguard, it is unfair you cannot sell him.

If you look at your answer, it is already 3 different outcomes on 1 single rule. How do you expect people to know what to expect then?

I don't know what is the problem with making a clear boundary, everyone knows then and people don't have to go inside of the head of a moderator to see how he would think on allowing or not allowing the sell.

What about this scenario:

1) u make pyro +inf on lvl 2 and u get hard send. U dont make it to pyro and ubup zeus.

2) u got a resend on lvl 3 that totally destroy you. so ur forced to suicide.

why would we not allow him to sell his tk line? he is not trying to clog race win by selling, he just dead line and sell to push, if we not allow him to sell then he is no hold no push no nothing since lvl 2 on wards.

he is not trying to sell a zeus/pyro on a clog send lvl, he actually will start selling inmediately on early game cuz he was randomnly destroyed by sends on lvl 1 and 2. So we need to also ban him for abuse selling after all that bad luck? great...

[KiwiLeKiller]

But what you are saying now is exactly what people don't want, that they don't know what to expect, but are dependent of the moderators judgment. We can go on, zeus is 215 value, same as nightmare, can sell it? If he just made 3 infantries instead he could sell for lower than 200 gold. Pyro allowed? It's 230 gold. Spawn of dragon allowed? Can't sell it, but is also 1 unit. Moonguard allowed? If you got TK roll and you can only build moonguard, it is unfair you cannot sell him.

If you look at your answer, it is already 3 different outcomes on 1 single rule. How do you expect people to know what to expect then?

I don't know what is the problem with making a clear boundary, everyone knows then and people don't have to go inside of the head of a moderator to see how he would think on allowing or not allowing the sell.

What about this scenario:

1) u make pyro +inf on lvl 2 and u get hard send. U dont make it to pyro and ubup zeus.

2) u got a resend on lvl 3 that totally destroy you. so ur forced to suicide.

why would we not allow him to sell his tk line? he is not trying to clog race win by selling, he just dead line and sell to push, if we not allow him to sell then he is no hold no push no nothing since lvl 2 on wards.

he is not trying to sell a zeus/pyro on a clog send lvl, he actually will start selling inmediately on early game cuz he was randomnly destroyed by sends on lvl 1 and 2. So we need to also ban him for abuse selling after all that bad luck? great...

Well, if we allow that, it kinda destroys the whole idea of this rule, it also destroys the skill aspect of the game and it doesn't reward the enemy team for killing someone early. 200 gold is pretty much perfect and should be enforced as it is now.

[FadingSuns]

but here is whenni came mick to clarify that if i find a player repirting other on a rule broken like this, it might end with no ban.

Lets use this case as exampl. Why is kreu reporting this rule break? to get a vendeta ban CLEARLY. we all know it has 0 impact on game, when i say 0 i mean 0. that about 1 second more to push can be 1 more wood and 1 more wood can be the differnce between heal or not its purely tk reasoning.

Kreu had issues with nico ingame for x reason. he saw him "breaking a rule" so he got his ban. if u check the way they blamed each other is 100% clear that the skeletons sell was the last of their probles on this game and was just ab excuse to get ur "enemy" ban. U can now tell me whatever but i got 100% clear whats the goal of this report (carefull Kreu is by far one of my best friends on this game, so no, im not biased towards him)

so this migh end on use banning nico on a thing that rlly had 0 impact on game for a personal vendeta. because with the rules in our hand he deserves a ban. Srsly, appart the rule, someone really thinks we should ban this? then something on this league is broken...

if he sold that 2 skeles on a race lvl having 2 turrets to sell ok, but in this case? .... im still in to review case by case.

im not telling with this that ppl should freely do it. Ofc ppl should never sell more than 200. if they do they might get reported, ofc. What im saying is that not every report will end on a ban because its not always the same scenario when a rule is broken.

U dont wanna get reported? dont break rules, simple.

All the reports should be handled the same exact way no matter what? no, thats why we mods are here.

Am i telling that ppl should freely abuse cuz they might not get banned. LOL no. Ofc we will review each case and if there is any abuse u will be punished, we are not idiots. I got enought game knowledge to judge if sell a zeus on lvl 4 is an abuse or sell a zeus on a race lvl when u got also 3 inf is an abuse.

Am i saying that rare things that noone gets my point?

should the same only rule handle any case, in my view NOT.

[dweiler]

Ace, I really wholeheartedly disagree with you. I get your point that cases are different, and I admire that you are willing to look at the different side in a case, but handling it like this is just very subjective, and it is what the LIHL players asked us to change.

I personally don't think there is ever a good reason to sell a nightmare if we have the rule that you can't sell more than 200 value, and you do, so we will already have 2 different kinds of rulings if we apply 'common sense' and players already don't know what to expect and will get an unvouch or not depending on which moderator deals with their case.

You may think you are suited for the task to decide for LIHL what is reasonable and not, but fact is, people have different opinions about it, and they don't want to think if the moderators would find it reasonable to sell. So let's just make it easy for them. 200 value to sell is okay, more not, no matter what dweiler or ace thinks about it.

[FadingSuns]

its unfair. Going to an extreme to make it clear, we are basically telling that if someone kills other he deserve capital penalty, no matter if it was an accident or if he was planning it since weeks.

Sometimes u dont choose to suicide, u make ur build with the best hope and ur forced many times by game luck (theres not skill on getting 2 furbs or 2 bows on lvl 2) and u got towers that cost more than 200, upped ea, upped wagon, many things that cant be early sold by this arbitrary rule.

Im actually thinking we should develope this rule more:

Differentiate the value that can be sold for clog on send lvl than to suicide.

Also differentiate the value that can be sold pre 10 and on 10+.

we are penalizing the early suiciders in order to avoid the clog selling abusers and for me its clearly two different things

[dweiler]

its unfair. Going to an extreme to make it clear, we are basically telling that if someone kills other he deserve capital penalty, no matter if it was an accident or if he was planning it since weeks.

Sometimes u dont choose to suicide, u make ur build with the best hope and ur forced many times by game luck (theres not skill on getting 2 furbs or 2 bows on lvl 2) and u got towers that cost more than 200, upped ea, upped wagon, many things that cant be early sold by this arbitrary rule.

Im actually thinking we should develope this rule more:

Differentiate the value that can be sold for clog on send lvl than to suicide.

Also differentiate the value that can be sold pre 10 and on 10+.

we are penalizing the early suiciders in order to avoid the clog selling abusers and for me its clearly two different things

Try to formulate your suggestion in specific rule(s) and we will have a poll then which of the 2 people prefer, the straight-rule or judging it case-by-case. Then we can follow the ruling that people want.

[KiwiLeKiller]

First of all, i do not understand why mick and Ace dont discuss this heated style in private and show the results or get a poll for settling the differences in community?
I am a supporter of going by the rules, because it is easier to prevent heat like this when the rules are broken. Easy clear rules make the game harder to get annoyed by and prevent heat i guess, also it is easier to follow. i have not reported anyone because when i see someone break a rule i try to tell them and say hey dude pls dont do it again. In my experience it worked most of the time . It is Kreuts right though to report any broken rules he sees, even if it is like a revenge post on nico. Nico is not here for a few weeks or so, and as i said in my race example in the earlier post, if it would have zero impact on the game he would not have sold it. You do not sell 200 g + if you do not have a reasoning for it or a goal you want to achieve with this sell. Id say he did it to get an advantage or because he didnt do the Math.
I do not understand Aces way of arguing though that he will go case by case if something was legit or not based on the situation it happened in on the game. I can understand that the punishment is debatable for a rule break, but that someone breaks a rule and will not get a repercussion out of it based on the game situation he did it it kinda unfair for me as a community member and also imo supports the point that you do not get equal treatment here. It is hard to justify different consequences for the same mistake imo, because this is not like real life justice system or anything where other stuff gets taken into account. For me it is quite simple, we all play the same game by the same rules, you break a rule for whatever good reason it is not to be accepted because it is still a rule. Its competetive league and i understand that a lot people want to win very badly here and care elo, which i really dont 2 much. For me its more important to have a good game high quality style and not have big drama over small stuff like this. I always try to use the rules to peoples advantages and improve the quality of the game. I do not understand why it is debatable a zeus is over 200g so u can not sell it. Pretty simple and easy to follow, less drama, more clearer situations. I never sold a nm here even if suicider because it is not within the rules. Thats the risk of building a unit, you might not be able to sell it. If you cant suicide aswell then as you could have, tough luck, deal with it.
Its really nice to see so much passion here though over this little thing, shows there is stills ome juice left in the forum^^

[Don_Killuminati]

This is one of the most tk rule i have ever seen, so i'm not surprise to see people arguing over and over about it.
I'm too lazy to read all but i still wonder, is that rule was made to avoid clog or to handicap suiciders?