sell 210 to push

[FadingSuns]

selling nm is allowed. Unit cost 215 and would be a great disadvantaje to not be able to suicide with nm when u can with any other t5. Please apply common sense instead try to chase others....

1. Currently it is not allowed, I don't know where you get your information from. If you don't agree you should have read my proposal to the rules instead of coming here now with the wisdom.

Do not sell more than 200 value during a single level with the intent to push and/or leak more. Only exception is King Claw. Selling towers worth more than 200g and then rebuilding to compensate is not allowed!

2. Your opinion is not common sense, it is your opinion, setting a firm limit on 200 is just as much common sense as allowing 215, it is just a different choice.

Btw I don't mind changing the rule to selling unupped t5's too, I am just not in favor of making it based on 'common sense' or 'moderator's opinion', it is too random.

we have tell like 5 or 6 times already in this forum that we allow sell nm with a buildback of 15g. mby its you who should carefully think before write. Ill post here later tonight the many times we have guaranteed it.

Regarding ur review on rules. i appreciate it but we have told several times that its just a guideline. While im still mod ill be always aplying common sense over the rules. If u want to apply the rule no matter what its up to you nbut i wont. So plz dont come here trying giving me life lessons, ur not the smartest guy in the world even if you think you are.... ur view on all tis is that, ur view. But i got mine also you know?.

[dweiler]

I am currently updating the rule section on wiki. Below in the spoiler is what I updated so far. If you see anything that you think is wrong/needs more clarification/is still missing from the new rules, please inform me so.

"Selling towers worth more than 200g is not allowed!" expection king claw or its meant without rebuilding?

Yup, exception King Claw. And I will make it more clear that rebuilding with selling more than 200g is not allowed. Thanks

Things changed so far:
Added the exception of King Claw, + clarification of no rebuilding at selling rule

That is from the discussion on the new rule section: viewtopic.php?f=207&t=120398

I literally said selling for more than 200g and then rebuilding will not be allowed in the new rules 3 times (in the rules section, in comment section and in the 'things added' section) and added it to the rule, and I literally asked everyone to post their opinion if they don't agree. You had the possibility to comment on that for 6 days since that and I also asked in moderator section if you could look at it, so we don't have different opinions.

This is the rule how it was proposed and you said nothing about it:

Do not sell more than 200 value during a single level with the intent to push and/or leak more. Only exception is King Claw. Selling towers worth more than 200g and then rebuilding to compensate is not allowed!

So yes, if you don't comment on anything and then come here on first occasion we have new rules to say you disagree that pretty much makes me sigh, because I did everything to prevent that, but you just refuse to do your job and read things properly when I ask so and then publicly disagree with me 3 days after we set the new rules in motion.

[FadingSuns]

in the momment that we agree its a guideline nothing more needs to be agreed. guideline not a fken must. u wanna rule lihl based on a bunch on rules? is that it? everycase is different and you should fken know it. idk why im explaining this to you. ur rules ere not the bible. same rule broken can derive in many different penalties or none. I repeat, i wont follow the rules step by step while judging a case. Maybe we just need an internal discussion but i repeat, while im still mod ill use rules and penalties as guideline and will apply my comon sense case by case. U dont like it? the we might have a problem. Be sure i wont follow ur way of doing thigs just cuz u think ur right, cuz i also think im right. Apply just rules no matter what is purely unfair and no sense. U know rl laws? how are they ruled? why we got lawyers and judges. Unless u include the 100% of possible casuistics with all minor details and comsecuences i refuse to manage lihl just based on a bunch of high lvl rules. And i wont

[dweiler]

Ace... You cannot ignore a rule like this:

Do not sell more than 200 value during a single level with the intent to push and/or leak more. Only exception is King Claw. Selling towers worth more than 200g and then rebuilding to compensate is not allowed!

And then say, it is case by case. This rule is written down that selling for more than 200g is never allowed. Saying moderators can still allow someone to sell 215 gold is highly illogical. And the LIHL-rules on the wiki are NOT a guideline, the LIHL rulebook with the height of punishments is a guideline. So yes, if you do disagree we have a problem, because I seriously have a problem with other moderators ignoring the rules.

[FadingSuns]

as you can see from this topic. Hazar view and mine is completely different than urs.

what we do? u wanna rule lihl alone just ur way? why we even discussing here?

well if any other lihl member wants to do this moderator job ill be so glad... i actually think all mods should be rotated each 1/2 seasons. We all should take this task and experience in our skin what this means. I dont like doing this task but it needs to be done. @kreu @fate dont u feel its ur time?

I keep my positioning in all this mick. So u might start to manage to kick me out from mods if thats what u want. Just dont try to outsmart me more on public cuz be sure im not a fool, if u wanna see who of us is smarter u might get a surprise

[dweiler]

It is not about outsmarting, it is about that I make a bunch of rules, ask you to comment on it, you don't comment and then come here to disagree with me on the rules I thought we agreed on. If you made your opinion known on the topic I made for it and asked you to comment, we could have avoided this and maybe could have made the rules more suitable to how you want. But not giving your opinion on the rules when I ask you and then come here to say you won't follow those rules is just rude and your personal things like you are 'smarter than me' are just totally out of place.

Also I said here I don't mind to change the rule again, if many people disagree. I just did not hear ANYONE disagreeing with it when I changed the rule, so how can I know you disagree? I was trying to fix that immediately when I saw people disagree here, until you came here saying the rules don't mean anything and I only want things my way because we made that rule and you don't agree (without letting anyone know).

[FadingSuns]

u already replied urself if u didnt notice. Rules are rules and penalty handbook is subject to our judgement. Is 215 nm value sell a rule broken? objetivily yes. Whats the punisment i would give it? none. End of story. The case of the 2 skeletons can be punished? yes since u can sell him sepparately. can u sell half a nm? no.

Of what i said. whats against rules? nothing. Just my judgement on a rule broken changes depending on the case. Isnt it all about we talking?

U said already what is subject to interpretation (penalties applied). am i wrong?

[dweiler]

Yes, but the rule saying 'Selling towers worth more than 200g and then rebuilding to compensate is not allowed! Only exception is King Claw.' needs to be changed for that, because it specifically says that the only exception to selling more than 200 gold is King Claw, and here you come saying Nightmare is also an exception. That is why I say I don't mind changing the rule to allowing unupped T5s too, but having a rule specifically forbidding to sell more than 200 gold and then have moderators saying you can sell 215 gold is ridiculous.

So when you go saying you will apply it by your judgment and literally ignore the rules adding more exceptions on your own, that is something I can't and won't agree with. Make a proposal for a new rule change if you don't agree (and preferrably read the proposed rule changes next time so we can do that on time instead of you coming here to disagree when we just agreed on the new rules).

[Jamo]

I think some things are also being mixed up here and put together in a wrong way.

First, lihl players asked for a more clear penaltie catalogue, since often they cannot really understand the reasoning and penalties applied. It just felt totally random, maybe biased and opinion bases. So I like this new catalogue, because it also takes the Mods a bit out of the attacking line, since they can simply quote this when someone feels being judged unfairly. Should result in less drama

However, as also stated by Mick, individual reasoning, e.g. on the penalties, can surely be applied but should simply be explained within the given posting. And there will be cases, where rules can never be 100% clear and individual reasoning is weighted heavier and then there will be cases where the rules are very clear.

For example, flaming and bad behavior I think is very individual and hard to put into precise rules. Also the history of a reported player will come into play. Same applies for recently popular "tk build posts" and similar things.
BUT, in the case at hand, I think the ruling should be really really clear. If the rule is 200g is what u can sell and that's it, then there is no excuse! Why would there be? It doesn't make sense. HOWEVER, there is still individual reasoning in this case, but it lies in the hands of the players, whether they wanna report such cases or not. But if such a case is reported, this should be one of the easiest things for mods to judge since the rule is really clear in this case. If you don't like how the rule is set up, then one has to work on the rule. But not put in a totally individual reasoning. if we wanna increase the sell value to 220g, allowing to sell stuff like nm or whatever, then the rule has to be changed, simple as that.

This catalogue should help both sides. Mods and Players. Mods can easy refer to it so here shouldn't be a reason for Players to complain about it. And Players know more clearly the consequences and have much clearer insight into the reasoning of cases.

[Kreutertee]

But ace, wouldn't you agree that a unified front is especially important in ruling on certain violations? By no means do I wanna tell you how to do your job, but utterly inconsistent ruling causes more drama and dissatisfaction than a joint understanding of what is allowed and what's not.

Nevertheless, you argue you can't sell half a nm, that's right. But compare it to engineer, you can hold early, with good push, but leak full 5. With nm and some random add with medium armor like slave master or soul of hero you can eat full 5 and 6 and still suicide after. A bit slower push early maybe, but can get 180 g in 5 and 6, giving y then more gold to push. So it has its advantages while others have disadvantages. Not every unit has to be the same, otherwise we could play with one T1, one T2 etc.

So yeah, if it says "rules", first and foremost they are to be followed. The punishment guideline is if you apply 1, 3 or 5 days unvouch, or even a warning, but not to say "no ban".

According to your rule I could also leave sometimes, use antistuck, pull creeps from leaker on purpose, delay mire than 120g, split on race level, etc.

How should any player judge to what's allowed and what's not?

[FadingSuns]

thats why im telling u unless u include every possible casuistic (quite impossible) for all the rules mentioned we cannot use this as a bible. I put the nm cade because we have specifically include that exception always that we talk about the rule. When the selling topic came out after nille sold a tok to rebuild 500 dead value it was clear the selling and rebuild thing was broken. But we cant compare selling a tok with selling a nm. We all know that a nm start is mostly advocated to be a dead line, u will be rarely a holder on 10+ when u start nms. Thats why i see it quite unfair to not allow a proper suicide (if needed) on a tk line because of 15 gold, moreover when all rest t5 can suicide. I just wanted to point out for all that we should not start tk reports trying to chase someone based on the small letters of the rule.

Lihls is not a chase league, lihl is not a hate league, lihl is meant to have good times playing quality games. Ofc rage and madness will appear, but mods are not here to solve the personal problems of players that try to chase others repirting minor details (this is not for u kreu, dont fl offended). Im tired of see personal vendeta reports. Ppl should be responsible and report real things that impact the game or real personal offenses (and not a bit rage for a given situation). We all like to compete, we all dislike a given player, but we are noy here to babysit, we are here to ensure fluent and mannered plays.

My bad for not reading/discussing on detail the new rule updates... ok my bad. But guys, dont lose the north, this is not legion report league, this is not legion "cheat and take advantage" league either ofc. But u all should have some common sense before making rest losing times with topics that only encourages more hate. With all this amount of little details we are losing the perspective of why are we here or why we love to play this TEAM league.

[FateStayNight]

@Jamo

the problem is rather that mods said in the past that selling 215value nm is okay, cuz if you end up as suicide with nm yolo (level 2 send) you could have 3 nm worst case but no possibility to push. So the reason to sell nm seems pretty legit imo.
I can understand that nico thought if selling nm is okay, he could sell 2 skelletor aswell, but its not.
However, who knows if he read the whole story bout nm selling or just 1 case where a mod refer to an old post and just said "in the past we agreed on selling nm is fine".

[dweiler]

@Jamo

the problem is rather that mods said in the past that selling 215value nm is okay, cuz if you end up as suicide with nm yolo (level 2 send) you could have 3 nm worst case but no possibility to push. So the reason to sell nm seems pretty legit imo.
I can understand that nico thought if selling nm is okay, he could sell 2 skelletor aswell, but its not.
However, who knows if he read the whole story bout nm selling or just 1 case where a mod refer to an old post and just said "in the past we agreed on selling nm is fine".

Thanks, I will post a message on Discord to make sure everyone is aware of the updated rules.

[Jamo]

But guys, dont lose the north, this is not legion report league, this is not legion "cheat and take advantage" league either ofc. But u all should have some common sense before making rest losing times with topics that only encourages more hate. With all this amount of little details we are losing the perspective of why are we here or why we love to play this TEAM league.

Exactly. In many cases it is the Players that should apply a good reasoning whether or not they report someone. And currently we are in a phase, where some people seem to create a bit too much drama again over total nonsense. And most of this stuff comes up every 2 or 3 months and are just insanely stupid. But I think a clear ruling on the moderator side helps suppressing such things.

@FateStateNight
Yes, i know what you are saying. But then it's just the "official rule" that should be improved.

[Kreutertee]

Thanks, I will post a message on Discord to make sure everyone is aware of the updated rules.

So:
selling 3 meat is ok or not ok?
selling 3 engi is ok or not ok?
Selling nm on race level in order to clog, when for example you also have 2 turret to sell is ok or not ok?

I really don't understand why we want so blurry lines on the ruleset when it can be made so easy? Cause don't sell more than 200g is really very simple. And I can't understand why people argue against it. It's the same rule for everyone, it concerns one or two units / situations whereas an irrevocable rule would solve all these uncertainties, and make live much easier for both mods and players?