Selling value

[FadingSuns]

First of all, im not pretending to force my view of things vs any other person view of things. But i think we all need to debate a bit longer about this specific rule. The purpose of this post is not gona be a Mick view vs my view. I just wanna put another point of view, discuss it with all, and if something solid comes out this post make a poll and decide.

My view:

We need differentiate, rule based, the different purposes and timings of selling value. The original purpose of all this selling rule was specifically to avoid clog races on lvl 14/15/17 (15 specially, its the most valuable lvl to clog).

Selling pre lvl 10:

1) we can start with the basis that any combination of towers sold (means more than 1 tower sold) should never pass 200 value (this can be ofc debated)

2) I would allow to sell any T1 upped (with the exception of engi or specter second upgrade)

3) I would allow any T2 upped sold even if it passes 200 value (again talking about a single tower sold, not about a combination)

4) Regarding t3 or t4 i would stick to the 200 value rule unless we find any specific situation when a t3/t4 upgraded is rlly near to 200 value (i cant imagine it atm) -> EDIT: the famous wagon upped with 210 val

5) I would allow to sell any T5 non updated

Selling post 10:

I would remove any kind of selling allowed or gold saved in order to clog more on a send lvl. Selling value in order to push or clog after lvl 10 started should be directly avoided

Guys, to suicide pre lvl 10 is a really valid and needed tactic, but i think 10 lvls is enought to understand if you are a holding or suiciding line. What we should really avoid (and its stated on our rules since the begggining of times) is that clog should not be allowed. At least we should not enforce it after arena.

Wanna see ur views on this because we are trying to handle suiciding pre 10 and clogging post 10 with same rule and for me its clearly 2 different things

[dweiler]

Cheers, my point of view is that we need to have clear rules instead of moderator-judgment based. That could be either just having the 200-limit, or very clear rules what to sell on what levels, so if people consider this better, you got my support too

[KiwiLeKiller]

It is soooooooooooooooooooooo complicated! In my opinion, the 200 gold rule is fine. We do not need to create rules encouraging and facilitating suicide in what claims to be a "skilled league", be it before or after arena.

Suicide is a valid strategy, but it is clearly overused for no apparent reason else than lacking skills. What really shows skills is keeping your lane alive with what appears to be a "bad roll". Also, people tend to overpush brainlessly in fast games or in games where pushing is not as worth as holding, resulting in them not being able to recover later.

As I said in a previous post, suiciding with decent units should not be facilitated by changing the rules. If you suicide with a good unit, should have to live with the consequences of it.

So in my opinion, the rule itself is fine and should remain as it is. Your suggestion, even if your intentions are good, is way too complicated and would almost require an algorithm to be understandable. Also we need a clear rule without any interpretation else then what it is meant to be.

[FadingSuns]

It is soooooooooooooooooooooo complicated! In my opinion, the 200 gold rule is fine. We do not need to create rules encouraging and facilitating suicide in what claims to be a "skilled league", be it before or after arena.

Suicide is a valid strategy, but it is clearly overused for no apparent reason else than lacking skills. What really shows skills is keeping your lane alive with what appears to be a "bad roll". Also, people tend to overpush brainlessly in fast games or in games where pushing is not as worth as holding, resulting in them not being able to recover later.

As I said in a previous post, suiciding with decent units should not be facilitated by changing the rules. If you suicide with a good unit, should have to live with the consequences of it.

So in my opinion, the rule itself is fine and should remain as it is. Your suggestion, even if your intentions are good, is way too complicated and would almost require an algorithm to be understandable. Also we need a clear rule without any interpretation else then what it is meant to be.

Well i think everyone here knows me good enought that im not a fan of suiciding at all, but sometimes its not ur choice. When i start building with engis i only have in my mind to be a beast with 150+ income and 1500+ value at arena, but sometimes happen that u send lvl 2 and u find ygg spawn and harlot+crab on enemy mid and therefor u understand game is gona be fast cuz they go straight 7 and makes no sense for u to send pre 7 since they will hold it, so u need to suicide. Other times i build Ea+small or pyro+inf on lvl 2 and i leak 50% of lvl (with no king gold) cuz i got 2 furbs. There i need suicide again (i maybe suicide less than 5% of my games).

On those scenarios, going suicide does not show a lack of skills, just shows adaptation to current situation. I agree with you that there is annoying ppl that already call suicide with decent rolls before lvl 1 even start, what to do in that cases?...

What we cannot also do is to limit ppl to sell this or that when their only purpose or possible goal on the game is just push and send. OFC having suiciders pre 10 means u also need holders so its at the end kinda compensated.

We need to really take care of clog but not about suiciders pre lvl 10, at least not at the same lvl. thats what i think

[FateStayNight]

"Suicide is a valid strategy, but it is clearly overused for no apparent reason else than lacking skills." thats far away from reality imo. Suicide is just super(probably way too) strong option to close/turn around games. If you decide to have 4 "holding" lanes you most likely gonna lose to clog/outsend. Often even aqua goes 7-9 leaker because lumber is way more important than clearing your lane.

[Don_Killuminati]

I feel like Kiwi and i not playing the same league/game

[dweiler]

In a previous discussion about this which I read back, the suggestion was as follows:

Do not sell any value after arena for clogging purposes.

Would that be a good rule? If you say selling for suicide is not the same as selling for clogging, I don't see why we need to have a cap on that at all.

[FateStayNight]

"Do not sell any value after arena for clogging purposes." that would be impossible to proof -> not gonna work

[dweiler]

How about,

Do not sell any value after arena, unless it is to benefit your build?

[FateStayNight]

I dont know, i feel weird stuff would happen and the discussion would be even greater.

then people start selling alch for lod and shit like that.

I dont like clog in general, but without clog 15~20% of the games would be decided before game.

Imagine Lod, harlot ea, aqua immo vs semicore rolls. mostlikely ea team will get 1-2 heal advantage pre arena. How is the other team ever come back? Clog gives the option to turn around the game while risking dying level 14 ( i know call is always anti 14 clog 15). But without clog 20% of the games dont need to be played.

@Fadingsuns i would do the mod job for at least 1 season, but i doub community would want that

[FadingSuns]

I dont know, i feel weird stuff would happen and the discussion would be even greater.

then people start selling alch for lod and shit like that.

I dont like clog in general, but without clog 15~20% of the games would be decided before game.

Imagine Lod, harlot ea, aqua immo vs semicore rolls. mostlikely ea team will get 1-2 heal advantage pre arena. How is the other team ever come back? Clog gives the option to turn around the game while risking dying level 14 ( i know call is always anti 14 clog 15). But without clog 20% of the games dont need to be played.

@Fadingsuns i would do the mod job for at least 1 season, but i doub community would want that

but in that same scenario... it usually happens that the team with lod harlot aqua ea immo and +2 heals clogs lvl 15 as well. That even gives lower win chances to the tkroll+spell team isnt it?. Im tired to see that scenario on daily basis as well...

U think that ppl likes me more than u? lol.... u are a respected and skilled member...

[Meshtar]

I see both points and they both have validity in their own way. That being said, I am strongly supporting Mick's position (adding unupped t5 is allowed to be sold in all situation is also np for me, since the rule stays very clear) for the following reasons:

1) Rules are clear, easy to follow, easy for moderators to judge, and lihl players can predict the outcome of every report and know what to expect.

2) As it has been shown many times here and in all of humanity, the term "common sense" is quite different for everybody. I am pretty sure we are more or less different in what we see as "reasonable". So even in cases where there is no dislike between players and definitely no revenge intended you can see 2 players argue 2 different points of view and actually mean it. I'll just point to that report I posted and then withdrew, the only report I ever did, vs Donki where I am sure he acted a certain way in game thinking its right and I can guarantee I made the report thinking hes very wrong. No bad feelings, no intentional harm intended, but clearly 2 different views on fairplay. I am still not sure who is right in that case

3) Even if we disregard the differences in apparent reasoning I think Ace's way would still work very well if the league actually was the way he sees it. Maybe I am very wrong (yes yes I am relatively new and all ) but I see a couple of very distinct groups of players in lihl.
First group and sadly the smallest group imo is a group of players who see lihl as a circle of friends who wanna relax yet still compete and have good quality games. I am quite sure Ace is in this group.
Second group, bigger group, are people who want to play and compete but generally don't care much about immersing themselves into community, don't care about forum etc. They play to play and compete and don't care about anything else.
Third group, also bigger than first, are people who are here to prove something and will constantly try to measure their penises and prove they are better than X or Y player, prove they are the best etc and in doing that will always try to find a workaround to have their way and will try to abuse something if possible to achieve their goal.
Ace's way would work just fine if all or at least majority of the players were in group 1, but imo thats simply not the case and that is why I think firm rules is the only way to make this fair and predictable for all the players.

Either way, I think its great to have this discussion, to iron things out and after that simply make a poll so lihl players can decide which way they wanna go

[bezdak]

My thoughts:

Sell what you want pre-10.
Don't sell at all post-10, unless it's needed to build a stronger unit/selling a delay after it's not needed anymore.
Don't sell post-20 unless the above or to make space to prevent splitting.

[FateStayNight]

@bezdak ,

So if i sell 2 rev for minotaur, do i get banned or not? (after level 14)

[Kreutertee]

So if i sell 2 rev for minotaur, do i get banned or not? (after level 14)

Exactly. Who's to judge?

That's why I like simple rules like "don't sell more than 200. period."
No need discussion. Noone needs to define what a good unit is and what a bad unit is.