ELO Reset

[dweiler]

So wait, I am confused about the proposal now.

What is the proposal? To keep your Elo 'for a lifetime' and that after 3 months we look at highest Elo and he gets the win for that 'season'?
Or do we reset Elo after every season and then add up the Elo's to see who is on top for a longer period of time?

To be honest, keeping Elo over seasons is unfair for a season-based league. If you play to win a season, only what you did that season should count. The previous seasons are totally irrelevant for that. I see your point that Elo on a long term is more fair, but that is the concept of ladder, not a season-based league.

[FateStayNight]

Imo its way more unfair the way it is atm. Our Elosystem works really simple and doesnt fit to a league with only ~80 player.
I remember when hodor had around 1200-1400 elo he kept playing with ava magic and me in one team at once, because we all kinda had a bad start.
Imagine you start with 1800 elo into the season, from the beginning your games are going to be really challenging, so with a minimum of 100 games it will be pretty hard to gain or even keep your elo.

I see your point mick, with mixing up the callers at start of season and having more variety with the teams.
Its fun for sure, but its surely not fair, if recent top 4 players vs recent bot 4 due to some random bad starts.

[dweiler]

I don't want to be a mood killer, but it is very unlikely that we are going to bring results of previous seasons into account in new seasons. That is changing the entire concept of the league.

Everyone has equal chances at the start of each season. No privilege to players who did well last season. If you did good last season, good for you, time to prove yourself again. A player who ended up on 600 Elo last season should not have to play his first 200 games to have a normal position in the league, and someone who ended on 1500 Elo previous season cannot lose way more games than he wins that season only to end up even above average for that season.

[Tom_hardy]

Mick I am sorry, but I highly disagree.
People Do Not have equal chances because of very different amounts of games played. Lets just take ilocos or diablo, whom ive always considered very skilled, or even tin lately. Because of the giberish of the first two months, and the completely random pairing, if you dont play a lot, you are most likely to stay where you are in terms of ELO. After some people finally get closer to their real ELO to the end of the season, and the matchups get fair, there is not enough time to really advance, then the season is already over. You have to spam games like crazy to compete. How is that the way you want it to be?

[BoretkPanda]

I don't want to be a mood killer, but it is very unlikely that we are going to bring results of previous seasons into account in new seasons. That is changing the entire concept of the league.

Everyone has equal chances at the start of each season. No privilege to players who did well last season. If you did good last season, good for you, time to prove yourself again. A player who ended up on 600 Elo last season should not have to play his first 200 games to have a normal position in the league, and someone who ended on 1500 Elo previous season cannot lose way more games than he wins that season only to end up even above average for that season.

so u can only prove yourself when having an eloresett?

[Meshtar]

I agree with Tom about season analysis, it is very obvious that people take a long time to reach their more or less proper elo due to rng factor. Sometimes its not even 2 months with decent amount of games played. I think either model proposed should be given a chance, since its always easy to go back to the old model by resetting everything. Basically I don't see a downside with testing this thing out for at least a season, by keeping the stats from this season in total elo as I suggested, or the one and only elo as Tom suggests. We can poll this thing and see what people think? So far it doesn't seem many people are against

[dweiler]

I still doubt we should regard this proposal. This is not a proposition of more fair/vs more unfair (I told you the reasons behind a season-based league), it is a change of the league. Instead of season-based it will be a ladder. We already have a ladder, and we made LIHL for people who want to try win seasons here. I am not saying a ladder is wrong, but I feel like if people want a ladder, they should play the ladder that we have (1200+ for example). Here there is a different kind, where everyone has same chances and starts at 0, it's a different logic, but we don't need a 2nd ladder besides ladder imo.

But I will open a poll for it, I guess if people want to make this more of a ladder we should consider it.

[iamyoursenpai]

You can still win a season if you're just #1 in ladder.

[dweiler]

Yes, but my problem is: we have a ladder, so if you want true Elo, play on 1200+ and you have the system you want.

Here, we reset Elo and play a season, everyone starts at 1000 Elo again, everyone has a fresh start, it leads to a lot of new hope and people wanting to play. (Just think of the activity boost we have every season at the start of the season, it's the most exciting moment for a big part of the league)

That is the league everyone signed up for, why should we change it to get the same as you can get somewhere else?

[Meshtar]

I still doubt we should regard this proposal. This is not a proposition of more fair/vs more unfair (I told you the reasons behind a season-based league), it is a change of the league. Instead of season-based it will be a ladder. We already have a ladder, and we made LIHL for people who want to try win seasons here. I am not saying a ladder is wrong, but I feel like if people want a ladder, they should play the ladder that we have (1200+ for example). Here there is a different kind, where everyone has same chances and starts at 0, it's a different logic, but we don't need a 2nd ladder besides ladder imo.

But I will open a poll for it, I guess if people want to make this more of a ladder we should consider it.

I see your point Mick. But 1200+ isn't a real ladder because you can stack players there and there is never a votebalance. Also you can have multiple smurfs and people can get boosted by playing with low elo smurfs. I could also add plenty of other things that don't really fit in the proper ladder idea.
Tom's model is indeed a ladder model. My model on the other hand is more of a ladder/season mix. Maybe we can make an experiment at least for 1 season see how it works and if people like it. It might change the dynamics of lihl after 18 seasons for better or for worse but if there is a chance to change it for the better I think its worth giving it a shot, since its very easy to revert to the old system at any moment

[Tom_hardy]

Well, ladder, league, call it as you want. Though even the current ELO system is completely ladderbased.
People come here to have competetive high quality games in a community under supervision. Of course 1200+ doesnt provide the same or we would not need vouchrequests, also the points meshtar mentioned. I never intended to fuck anything over. Im trying to implement a rating system that people can take serious at all times. No more no less. Everything can be developed or updated from that proposal. I just thought that is something we should adress.

[dweiler]

Well, ladder, league, call it as you want. Though even the current ELO system is completely ladderbased.
People come here to have competetive high quality games in a community under supervision. Of course 1200+ doesnt provide the same or we would not need vouchrequests, also the points meshtar mentioned. I never intended to fuck anything over. Im trying to implement a rating system that people can take serious at all times. No more no less. Everything can be developed or updated from that proposal. I just thought that is something we should adress.

Yeah, for me it is some adjustment, I consider the 3 months and then start fresh again as one of the core points of LIHL. But I will manage if it is voted on that it should be more of a ladder system

[dweiler]

The poll on forum should 8 in favor, 11 against. So we will stick with the current format.