Just a few suggestions...

Moderator: LIHL Staff

User avatar
Jamo
Treant
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:57 pm
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Just a few suggestions...

Postby Jamo » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:15 pm

Heya all!

Spoiler!
Beware, long post incoming!

pps: Okay, preview shows this post is much longer than expected. If not interested in all of it, just read the suggestions xD


Spoiler!
Disclaimer:
I really hope this post isn't drama worthy, but I have no clue tbh. Like I said, I made this post to help out and post my view about why certain things clearly got out of control recently. I wanna help improve things and not harm anyone. I know most cases are not as easy to handle and don't fit to a pattern. But the ones that should be easy to handle, should not create confusion, but rather a foundation on which Players can trust Moderators and vice versa. Don't take anything personally. Also there is also still a language barrier, which might hinder me of writing 100% what I mean. We will find out ;)


Already since quite some time I have some small suggestions and advices in mind about things that bother me and that could maybe improve the Moderator-to-Player (or Player-to-Moderator, whatever, just meaning the general relation between both) experience. Because that is what I think is really bad on certain levels here recently and could be the root of a lot of misunderstanding lately.
In order to improve this, I think we need to understand two things first:

1: Players want to understand how the league is being moderated! And in order to do so, the moderating team needs to act as one unity and follow guidelines that are comprehensible for the Players. That's why I think the recent Penalty catalogue Mick put here is a really good step! Because when penalties and other stuff feels arbitrary, then Players start saying Mods are biased. So I see guidelines like this and more clear rules as suggested below as a way to protect you Moderators from false accusations (especially the being biased thing...) of others and also it help to prevent creating a bad or confused picture of you in the Players head. And when those things are clear to us, then this should help to easier trust you when you judge cases that are not as clear and can't be handled with simple rules.

2: Moderators expect a certain credit of trust from us, the Players! Moderators were not really voted democratically from the Player Pool, but they volunteered to help making this league possible. And when they applied, everybody could say what they think of their application. But once a Mod is approved, we should in the first place rely on them acting unbiased and in favor of the league and not just themselves! However, this trust can be lost, for example when in-game behavior doesn't fit to their Moderator role or especially when Players do not understand their judgement.

That being said, I first want to stress now that I highly appreciate every Moderators effort he is giving to LIHL. And when I make a suggestion or try to give advice now that affect the Moderator's job, then I don't want to blame anyone but rather try to learn from how things evolved in the past. Please keep that in mind, Thanks!

SUGGESTIONS
1. Don't handle your own cases!
For me, this is the most crucial point. You don't want to be called biased? Then don't handle your own reports. I never understood why this should be possible, I do not know this from anywhere else exactly because of this bias problem. And this has nothing to do with whether we trust you Mods or not. You are also Players, you also experience the heat of the moment, and yes, you also do mistakes like everyone does. And nothing lowers your credibility in front of us more than if a decision you made has to be withdrawn and if the penalty you apply feels arbitrary to us. Because also the Players are biased, they like some Mods more than others etc. And if someone they maybe don't like that much does something they cannot completely follow and might be in their disadvantage, then the drama begins. So imo Mods should just write a report like everyone else and let it be handled by a third opinion. You just have to live with the fact that it might take a while to be handled, but we all have to. Again, this just prevents you from false accusations!

2. Change the appeal system.
If I could decide, I would simply get rid of it completely. People do mistakes, you apply a penalty, they pay for it and that's it. No further corrections needed, keep it simple, avoid drama and discussion. However, I can see the point why you would want to keep it. When people have their first (maybe minor) offense for example. But if you want to keep it, I would include this new rule: You cannot appeal before 50% of the ban time has passed! Maybe also after 2 or 3 bans for similar reasons (flame, rq) you lose the right to appeal at all.
Why? Because penalties should hurt nonetheless, otherwise people won't learn anything. And on top of that, it makes you Moderators look weak when you first apply a penalty, but then reverse it after only a fraction of the time has passed. Your whole arguing about that penalty time then doesn't feel sound at all! Especially if Moderator 1 does the ban, and Moderator 2 reverses it relatively quickly. It just looks strange to the outside, no matter your positive idea behind it. And imo this is something you really want to avoid! On top of that, a completely heartless half-sentence appeal without any punctuation or grammar should never be approved. And if so, I expect at least one or two sentences of the Moderators why it is approved. Most of the times this is done, sometimes it's not, and then, in some cases everybody is just shaking his head asking what's happening.
So again, I think changing the appeal system helps you Moderators to avoid false accusations of biasness and unfair judgement and protects you. And when with such easy things one can avoid this, it is a good thing. Because there are enough cases, which cannot put into simple rules. And on those we have to trust your judgement, which won't work when we already shake our head about the easy ones from time to time.

3. Penalties for misbehavior in chats (forum, Discord).
Especially recently, but also over the past 2(?) years I am playing here I have seen accusations and misbehavior here, that's just insane. You all know what I am talking about and imo nobody has to let anyone talk to himself like that. This is valid for player-to-player discussions as well as Player-to-Moderator talks (I expect this doesn't happen from Moderator to Player). And I think nobody has the right to talk this toxic to anyone. If someone can't express himself without being completely rude and insulting, then imo one can certainly apply in-game bans. Imo the Mods can be much more strict about this and enforce some better behavior from us players. (Again, this should be done as a report, which then a different Mod handles if it's a Player-to-Mod case instead of a Player-to-Player case.)


Those are my suggestions for now. I wanna add some small pieces of advice to Mods and Players, which I think is risky, but whatever. I just ask to maybe think about these things for a moment. I do not say that you have to agree to everything.

Some Advice to the Mods
I know, I am not a Mod and it's hard to give advice on something one has never experienced by himself. So I wanna be especially careful here. Again, don't get me wrong, I just wanna point out a bit what I think was lacking recently and could maybe help.

1. First of all I think the Mods have to be more aware of their role and their public image. You cannot purely behave and post here like a player. When you post something, this will have more weight in every sense, if you like that or not. And also your moderator status should be reflected in your actions and how you behave in-game.

2. Sometimes I feel like you need to develop some more finess (in german I would say Fingerspitzengefühl). You have to understand how your actions are perceived by us players. So for example, if you have to handle a case of someone you are acquainted with, maybe point out a bit more clearly why you did something or not. Or, let someone else handle the case.

3. I would love to see you act more as a unified front. A Team! This means on the one hand, you should not discuss critical things too open in public. It makes you look like you have no idea how you should handle things. So what are we players supposed to think of that? Of course you can have different opinions and discuss on forum. But at some point your opinions should match, otherwise everything looks completely arbitrary again. And if they don't, find out why behind the curtains in your admin chat, not here in public, and come back with a clear statement.

4. Maybe be a bit more open to criticism. Sometimes I have the feeling when something is critizied, you often just block your mind because you think you are being offended personally. But even if you think it's wrong, try to understand why something was criticized and reflect on yourself. I often don't know when I post something here meant as constructive criticism on whatever topic, if you immediately think that I do not valuate your work. It's a bit similar to the "biased" club Players swing very fast, that Mods swing the "I do this in my free time so do not critisize me" club. So I really hope also this thread is not perceived in a wrong way. Of course all this goes in hand with the behavior of us Players. If it's just shit talking, then I come to the next point again one more time:

5. Don't let others talk to you like shit! People need show you respect. Discussions can always be made but in a constructive way. Otherwise, penalize them. I mean, you know that better than me. I just want to point out that I am on your side with this ;)


Some Advice to the Players
1. Really, relax more! In german I would say "So wie man in den Wald schreit, so schreit es auch zurück". Meaning, if you misbehave in front of someone, you can't expect the other one to behave normal in front of you. So get your shit together if you want to be respected.

2. It's not all about you. Try being more objective sometimes. Same way you call Mods biased, you are also biased when your case is handled.

3. Offer our Mods some trust. They are not here to make your life hard and punish you. They are here to help out and lead the league in a good direction. So if a decision was made against your favor, you should also reflect on it instead of flaming all around and being toxic.


I think that's enough for now.

Peace out,
Jamo


ps: I just wanted to be the new Essay master. Sorry @Meshtar ;)
These users thanked the author Jamo for the post (total 4):
Anda (Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:59 am) • 7years (Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:46 pm) • Diablo_ (Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:42 pm) • Meshtar (Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:19 pm)

Cryptonox
Forest Walker
Posts: 140
Joined: Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:20 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby Cryptonox » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:19 pm

Is there any tldr version of this? :D
Some boys talk about not being afraid a man with a gun - Until it pops off, you don't even see where they turn - Using excuses about running to get his gun - But when we see him, he is hiding underneath his bed

User avatar
Jamo
Treant
Posts: 460
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:57 pm
Has thanked: 121 times
Been thanked: 66 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby Jamo » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:23 pm

tldr: Moderator-Player perception needs to be improved. Read titles of suggestions to do so xD

User avatar
dweiler
Plague Treant
Posts: 1735
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2013 6:28 pm
Location: The Netherlands
Has thanked: 88 times
Been thanked: 232 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby dweiler » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:32 pm

Very interesting read, puts a lot of things in a nice and clearing perspective. I especially like your view on appeals and acting more as a front. I never thought about those problems with granting appeals, but I do see your point and will take them with me in my judging. Acting as a front, I will agree that I sometimes let my disagreements with other moderators get into public, which does more harm than good (for example the disagreement I had with Ace about the selling rule) which is something that should not happen.

I also believe that a more rational way of discussing would help sometimes. We should be stronger on discussing things with each other in a normal, civilized way.

We will continue to try to make things more transparent, we will come with a new way of dealing with the competitiveness of the league (no lists) probably tonight, which is very transparent and has a role for the players as well. I do sincerely hope that the players are willing to do their part in increasing the level of the league as well.
You don't stop playing because you grow old; you grow old because you stop playing.

FadingSuns
Treant Protector
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:38 am
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 113 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby FadingSuns » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:18 pm

This is all pure bs. Try to put this in practice with such group of childs. GL!

nukid
Forest Walker
Posts: 132
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:07 pm
Been thanked: 10 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby nukid » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:24 pm

0 dramapotential, good arguments, well structured and pretty helpful suggestions ---> very bad post.
These users thanked the author nukid for the post (total 2):
7years (Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:52 pm) • FQ-CoM (Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:18 pm)

FadingSuns
Treant Protector
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:38 am
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 113 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby FadingSuns » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:30 pm

This is exactly same case as when ppl bring really nice and bright ideas such as be more transparent and control the skill on the league but then same ppl critize mods for be more transparent and for try to take care of the lvl of the league.

"Don't let others talk to you like shit! People need show you respect. Discussions can always be made but in a constructive way. Otherwise, penalize them. I mean, you know that better than me. I just want to point out that I am on your side with this"

YEH MAN, THAT KIND OF NEW AND BRILLIANT IDEAS THAT WHEN THEY ARE APPLIED THE GIVEN MOD GETS INSTANT 5 REPORTS SUGGESTING HE IS BIASED.

In ur rainbow and unicorns world all the shit u said might work, but man, welcome to lihl!

EDIT:

Now ima do my 2 suggestions:

1) Stop creating rules to manage a men community and start creating rules to manage a childish community

2) TinThrump for unique mod is the only solution for this decadent league.

Don_Killuminati

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby Don_Killuminati » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:53 pm

Dont be pissed out at our international brillant JAMOFÜHRER ace...

User avatar
bezdak
Corrupted Treant
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:54 am
Location: Slovakia
Has thanked: 83 times
Been thanked: 44 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby bezdak » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:37 am

I strongly agree with no appeals at all. This isn't any pub game where we often ban to make people aware of the rules, here everyone's supposed to know rules right after vouching. I don't see any point of appeals for LIHL.
"Flame don´t make people play better" - Wolke

MudMan
Treant
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:18 pm
Has thanked: 56 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby MudMan » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:33 am

bezdak wrote:I strongly agree with no appeals at all. This isn't any pub game where we often ban to make people aware of the rules, here everyone's supposed to know rules right after vouching. I don't see any point of appeals for LIHL.


i disagree, appeals should happen to give a chance to the person who got banned to explain/present a case because he might have been misunderstood.

FadingSuns
Treant Protector
Posts: 947
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2014 10:38 am
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 113 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby FadingSuns » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:47 am

MudMan wrote:
bezdak wrote:I strongly agree with no appeals at all. This isn't any pub game where we often ban to make people aware of the rules, here everyone's supposed to know rules right after vouching. I don't see any point of appeals for LIHL.


i disagree, appeals should happen to give a chance to the person who got banned to explain/present a case because he might have been misunderstood.


DENIED (he can place his arguments on the same topic he is raported)
These users thanked the author FadingSuns for the post:
MudMan (Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:46 pm)

Im_Halp
Treant
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby Im_Halp » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:47 am

bezdak wrote:I strongly agree with no appeals at all. This isn't any pub game where we often ban to make people aware of the rules, here everyone's supposed to know rules right after vouching. I don't see any point of appeals for LIHL.


Couldnt have said it better myself. This is an IN-HOUSE League, everyone should be well aware of what is and is not allowed. If they don't then they will when they get hit with the ban.

Anda
LIHL Staff
Posts: 613
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:25 pm
Has thanked: 43 times
Been thanked: 127 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby Anda » Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:57 am

I disagree with that no appeal very strongly. Most times rules are pretty clear, but there always some situations that werent thought off when a rule was set in charge / demand a certain finesse. I wonder why precisely you @im_Halp, who I was warned by so many to invite into this league is against giving people a chance to present /evaluate their opinion / explain their reasoning. Theres a reason we moderators can judge these appeals, if we dont believe you or feel a ban is unevitable, we can simply deny them. If you trust us as moderators to act on your behalf you also deserve a fair chance to evaluate your reasoning which we deemed unacceptable/ banworthy.
If you think on behalf of our time, if you are banned you might just consider to endure a bantime even if you do not 100 % agree with our ban. It is our time we are investing in this, so maybe like if you get a supe rminor ban you might just consider sitting it out instead of wasting 30 mins of a mods time. Thats a certain kind of generosity aswell ;)
There is always a chance that people just bluntly tell us what we want to hear to get revouched, but as i said, i like 2nd chances, 3rd and 4th not so much.
Put some trust in the community and not the drama ( even though it can be entertaining af sometimes ^^)

Im_Halp
Treant
Posts: 415
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:21 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 11 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby Im_Halp » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:14 am

@snowblind
the difference between being given a chance to show that im not the person people thought I was and breaking a clearly stated rule, which everyone is expected to know, are two completely different things. I do not report people unless I know a ban will follow, this means they clearly broke a rule. Most of the time people intentionally break the rules assuming that no one will check. It is for this reason they do not deserve to appeal. Why is it they should be allowed to do so? If someone rq, saved more than 200, had more than 120g delay, split, pp, etc. why should they be allowed to appeal the ban? They all intentionally did those things; there is no way you mistakenly split or save too much. Whomever did so knew dam well what they were doing and that they were not supposed to do it. I also know that if a moderator enforces a ban then the mods agree that they broke a rule so why should they be offered an appeal if we all agree they broke the rule? In an in-house league we are expected to know the rules of the league and game, we are expected to follow those rules and when we do not we will be banned for it- if reported.

User avatar
bezdak
Corrupted Treant
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2013 12:54 am
Location: Slovakia
Has thanked: 83 times
Been thanked: 44 times

Re: Just a few suggestions...

Postby bezdak » Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:19 am

No appeal != no second opinion. You can always ask for a second opinion on the ban if you feel like the ban isn't fair. However appeals are just "sorry, won't do it again" shit when there is no doubt about the bans' fairness.

Current state:
1. I get a ban
2. I appeal a bit later saying I'm sorry, get an unban or shorten the ban

How it should be:
1. I get a ban
2. If I feel it is really unfair, I post a second opinion and either get rejected or the ban legth gets adjusted
3. I shut the fuck up and accept the ban cos I deserved it if even a second mod says so

EDIT: Take a moment and think about any case of appeal that got totally rejected btw. Cos I don't know about any. And why do we enforce the rules if we just take it back later?
These users thanked the author bezdak for the post:
Jamo (Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:57 am)
"Flame don´t make people play better" - Wolke


Return to “LIHL Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests