Things need to change

[Meshtar]

Take a look at this replay, see the builds, the opinions, the ignoring of advice, the calls.
https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=11266901
@Snowblind @FateStayNight @Crey @iamyoursenpai @Tom_Hardy
Do something please, we need to make some kind of change. This is unbearable at this point. Its actually more fun to play 1200+ since people there know they aren't awesome and will generally listen to advice in my experience. Even if I am tilted while writing this, I really want to start something constructive here and try to make things better. Please refrain from just pure flame posts and try to add some input.

Thanks.

[Wolke]

so what constructive idea you have ?

[Meshtar]

I have a few ideas actually, ranging from mild to radical ones, but I would rather listen first and hear out other people what they think and if they got some suggestions so we don't get lost in 10 different ideas and approaches.

[MudMan]

most people will only listen to advice if they think it is coming from a superior player.. if this is a recurrent problem with X player, then there is a procedure for reporting said player (gather multiple replays etc)

I dont think 1200 is more fun than lihl despite what u mentioned

[Meshtar]

No one ever got unvouched for low skill except Supreme and that only cause of remarkable dedication and time invested from Kreutertee and few others. Current procedure is useless, no one is gonna invest so much time into getting 1 tk player back to trial when there are so many more. This needs a different solution.

[Vendeta]

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 247100.w3g

Its like this, hate2lose went engi holder 10(?!). Ofc it didnt work at all. When we told him its tk he said "good".

Problem there was he called us new vouches, like, he is old player and he can tk and flame all he wants. Thats the biggest problem in lihl, old vouches thinks noone can touch them.

Im with mesh on this, something needs to be done asap.

[archol]

Too many people (up to 5 or more players i witnessed) lack the basics nowadays (holding, pushing, building, listening), in most games its usually from 1 up to 3 players who are teamkilling (hard or less) in 4s, quite many are not LIHL worthy due that, except we lower our expectations, but then we should reduce our requirements for 1200 players if we do that, as most 1200 players are even outplaying a few of those - maybe its the weather, but i dont think thats the reason for that.

If you teamkill a few days in row or 1 game, or have a bad day, i dont mind at all - but there are few players, who are teamkilling since weeks (start of this month or even the one before)

most people will only listen to advice if they think it is coming from a superior player.. if this is a recurrent problem with X player, then there is a procedure for reporting said player (gather multiple replays etc)

I dont think 1200 is more fun than lihl despite what u mentioned

For most of us 1200 is more fun to be honest, as u can expect tks there and they are mainly eager to listen to advices, here a lot of players dont even listen to the top players neither anyone (i atlked with several players already regarding that) or if the whole team tells that 1 or 2 players how to build or push as they even ignore it, they dont listen to anything at all (too proud, or too ignorant, or too stupid). I sent replays regarding that to the mods already 1 week ago, but i just wanted to raise awareness.

The last 2 games i had with Mesthar we had 2 teamkillers on our side, people who cant even play with archer or blaster.

The problem is not the teamkill for me, it was mainly the non-communication if you want to give advices or tell them how to build/push etc. That archer was a dead lane with 150 score, we told that player to push 7/7 or more, yet he refused and still leaked all levels, even 13 - that was just this week. But the non-communcation tkers doesnt excuse the other tkers who are listening too, but still build wrong and then we lose a race or heal due that (for example blaster pushing 5/0 pre5 and couldnt 3 blaster, and losing a heal which would asved us on 14 - yes we died on 14 with blaster)

To be honest, in my opinion only 2 players deservered an unvouch from LIHL (or at least a huge break so they can play 1200 and relearn basics) - one was Supremebeing in the past seasons, as he was the worst teamkiller of all time - i pronounce was, because there are at least 10 more worse than him in the league nowadays.

This month is, in my opinion, the most teamkilling time ever since im part of LIHL - we cant change it in my opinion, we can just lower our expectations for the league - even most players dodge LIHL and play 1200.

[archol]

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/view_replay.php?file=11247100.w3g

Its like this, hate2lose went engi holder 10(?!). Ofc it didnt work at all. When we told him its tk he said "good".

Problem there was he called us new vouches, like, he is old player and he can tk and flame all he wants. Thats the biggest problem in lihl, old vouches thinks noone can touch them.

Im with mesh on this, something needs to be done asap.

After reading this i remembered something - i gave those players (a few) a timeout from LIHL for 1 week and they had to reapply again with writing me (mini trial) - as i didnt wanted to unvouch them either at start. But that wont solve the current problem in my opinion

[BoretkPanda]

we need a new list @n1ll3!

[Anda]

1- You give complete powers to mods to send people back in trial/ ban them temporary to give them a timeout/ perma unvouch if we deem it necessary (Famous EVIL LIST for example) based on our judgements and analysis without complaining and calling unfair and biased actions.
2-You take the effort, give us replays and give us some material to work with.You dont give us enough replays, we get called biased or surpress freedom of speech.

Thats the resumee i have come to after my time working here now. A good portion of people only believe what mods do is fair, if they we took their own view and judged it exactly like they did.As n1ll3 said, the feeling of being right is the most overrated ever.Some of you neither respect or trust us enough to accept our decisions as it is. If you dont want 2- cause you simply dont wanna invest enough time, my suggestion is 1-.

3-? If you want a mix of these or compromise its worth discussing, though i doubt it will work out with our kind of community.

[Vendeta]

We need to clarify if we are all equal here as LTD players. Are we all equal or not ? Thats the main question.

Those "evil lists" and crap, thats not objective things, thats personal opinions.

[Diablo_]

We need to clarify if we are all equal here as LTD players. Are we all equal or not ? Thats the main question.

Those "evil lists" and crap, thats not objective things, thats personal opinions.

The only "objective" way to unvouch people is based on their Elo and win rate. And that would, funnily, also hit you and meshtar

[Vendeta]

If u think elo is that much objective, lets unvouch bot 10 at the end of the season.

[MudMan]

this post really isnt going to get anywhere. If someone tks so fuckin hard as mentioned above, a report would suffice for a penalty where its duration depends on what the mod team sees fit.. There is just no way to eliminate TK or do anything about "getting tked by others"

[Meshtar]

We need to clarify if we are all equal here as LTD players. Are we all equal or not ? Thats the main question.

Those "evil lists" and crap, thats not objective things, thats personal opinions.

The only "objective" way to unvouch people is based on their Elo and win rate. And that would, funnily, also hit you and meshtar

Elo and win rate aren't an objective way to determine skill and will never be until some radical changes in the system are implemented. Otherwise the same guy wouldn't be 800 elo one season and season winner the next season. His skill didn't objectively change much or at all, but the circumstances did. Thats just one example I can give 10 others off the top of my head.
But not to get derailed here I will get into essay mode and reply to Anda since he is the only one who made some suggestion.

I don't think your suggestion is the correct approach. As much as I appreciate moderator work, I also think those are just opinions and they change and vary as the subjective impression about x player changes also. As much as I was against n1ll3's infamous list in principle, I couldn't help noticing how much my impression about some players skill differs from his. I still didn't change much my opinion about those same people but I do have a different perspective now. Players like n1ll3, 1007 and others value henchmen like players above all, people who are willing to do exactly as they suggest and follow their calls, since from their perspective those are players they can win most easily with and I do get it, 1 good caller and 3 team player oriented guys work amazingly well. But objectively when left on their own, those guys often can't do much other than play their lane decently and not have a clue whats the right approach or whats the whole picture. Thus its all opinions and what type of players work with you the best. Not saying thats their only criteria, but it sure has a huge impact.

To get back on track, to avoid all this being opinions and to try to create an objective way I suggest the following, even if it may seem extreme and radical at start:

Put everyone in lihl back on trial for the duration of 3 months. And I mean EVERYONE, moderators and season winners included. Create trial thread for every active player.

What do we get with this radical move? The possibility for everyone to post replay in everyone's thread proving that player is tk and since replays are an objective way to see if someone has the fatal combination that creates most problems in lihl (low skill + stubbornness and refusal to heed advice) and if a qualified relative number of replays is presented which can objectively be judged then the said player can be unvouched and can reapply to lihl in a month or 2 same as every new vouch.

Why is this better than the current system of unvouch? First of all, we are all in the same situation, so its not a witch-hunt, yet different players can contribute to the same thread with their own replays, when by our current system the burden was always on the 1 player who makes the unvouch report to provide multiple replays. This way, legitimately, you can keep open threads about everyone so players can provide, over long period of time, a valid case which won't be time consuming for anyone (well except for mods partly, but they were burdened with the old way also).

Why does this solution fixes the problem? To quote Tom here, vouch requests have gone a long long way from season 1, when some people were automatically vouched, through the period of time when you needed enough players to !support, until latter seasons when you needed to provide objective proof of skill in a way of replays. So again to quote Tom, the threshold has gone only up from season 1 to 20.
How does this relate to the topic? The problem as I see it, are not new vouches or relatively new vouches. The problem are mostly some old vouches, who because they are veterans of lihl, feel they are beyond reach of skill-based unvouch and act arrogant and stubborn while also presenting in many games that their skill hasn't evolved much or at all since they were first vouched.

This way, no one can complain since we are all in the same situation, and since there is an open thread about everyone, if you feel someone is low skilled and uncooperative, you can provide replay as the objective proof of those traits and with enough evidence get that player unvouched, or hopefully even better, get him to see it himself and maybe improve his skill and attitude.