Dong, Dodo, Thor and Mr.Strawberry

[epicdeath]

Moderation has come to the conclusion that you have all played sufficiently well and made improvements in your gameplay. Consequently you will remain fully vouched members of LIHL. Keep in mind the only thing that will prevent you being listed again is continuing to uphold the standard of gameplay that you have shown us you are capable of.

Congratulations and happy gaming.

[Meshtar]

So the sum of these so called "purges" that span over 2 seasons now is the unvouch of one huge tker who is inactive anyway (Joe) and Supreme, who was unvouched without much transparency, presumably evidence is somewhere in discord pms. Not that I intend to defend Supreme, just the opposite, but your choice to basically do nothing with this lihl problem that doesn't even remotely end with Supreme's unvouch, be that cause you got no balls to do it , or because you just want to create an image where you supposedly monitor the game quality, so people at least have an inkling of responsibility towards games, while you really don't want to stir things up at all.
I want to remind you that this whole business was initiated by my post so I feel obliged to comment on it here. My impression is that your moderation is basically no moderation at all. You refrain completely from doing unpopular decisions, no matter if they are right or not. You take into account the popularity of people involved and if actions taken against them will create a backlash or not, again no matter right or wrong. So your moderation can be summed up with one sentence, "Going with the flow". From this impression only Anda is excluded in most part, although not completely. Now, most people don't care about this, as long as there are games going on, so I guess this will be accepted just fine. I just want to tell you that you aren't fooling anyone who cares about lihl being a community where you can play high quality and competitive games in a relatively mannered environment. Take a look at the average lobby quality this whole season. I am not sure there is a point calling this lihl anymore.

[dweiler]

I'm kinda sad by this conclusion. 3 out of 4 have not improved their Elo at all, which is by no means anything conclusive, but does indicate they are pretty much on the same level. I also just checked some random replays to see if they improved, well.. I saw a lot of fuck-ups. What I did notice though, since suicide is so common, that they just suicide when they fail and it just fits into the game. But by just watching the games I could clearly see some of them still don't have a clue what they are actually doing.

[KiwiLeKiller]

I am not sure there is a point calling this lihl anymore.

Since when are you playing LIHL already?

LIHL has lost it's own identity a while ago and it has always frustrated me. Some people prefer to keep a high amount of games played over the quality of games, I've always prefered it the other way because of what LIHL stands for: a league which provides competition and high quality gameplay. I think current LIHL moderation team is going in the right direction, but some more efforts could definitly be put towards having higher standards of quality from players and the league in general.

I remember few years ago, it was much harder to get a trial in LIHL and players were expected to maintain a high standard of gameplay level... What happened to it?

[Meshtar]

True enough, I can only measure lihl since the time I was vouched, which is like 5 seasons ago I think? Still, I have learned a lot that first season mostly, it was a season when many of the best players were active, unlike last few seasons. Still, I see that we agree about the quality of games, if not about everything else. My whole point was that this direction that moderation takes is merely declarative rather than being something they want to achieve. It is meant to sate people like me and you and some other, who demand that we insist on quality rather than quantity of games or number of lihl players active, but after 4 whole months of this approach it resulted in one big nothing sadly.

[TinSoldier]

mesh seems like the type of guy that if you gave him $1million, he would complain that they were all $100 bills. All i see from your comments is using buzzwords like "transparency", "game quality", "mannered environment" and other shit terms and phrases so you can manage to scrounge together enough words to bitch and complain. I just don't understand what you expect? Like you want mods to make individual posts with their breakdowns on all the replays that they went through for each person? You want them to purge all the "lower level" players in a span of a few weeks and cut # of active players down to 40? I know you may feel so superior claiming that you would rather reduce the # of games in favour of quality games cuz ur fucking cool, but guess what? We barely manage to get 1 lobby consistently going for 10 hours a day. You think good players will stick around to play if they need to sit waiting and tagging people to get a game together?

People tend to look at the past with rose tinted glasses. I've been in lihl for maybe 3-4 years now, by far im not the oldest player but i can promise you the skill level in lihl has not dramatically changed. The map itself has changed so much that games are constantly going 20+. Whereas when i first got vouched games RARELY made it passed 15, and almost never passed 17. Players will stay 7/4 or 7/3 passed arena cause they can go mid on the send level, whereas on older version of the map late game mids were not as common.

I think what the real issue is mesh, is you got insecurity issues about your own skill level. You constantly float around the 700-900 elo range and it scares you because you can't accept the fact that maybe its not everyone else that tk's you. I'm not even saying that your a bad player, but that you are projecting your own difficulties in lihl onto the league itself. The mods got limited amount of time that they need to split between playing lihl, moderating lihl, and actually having a real life and if they're gonna get criticized by the same people (loud minority IMO) then we gonna have more people burn out as anda sadly did.

this comment is already getting into meshay territory so ill cut it short, just chill out man and enjoy the game and empathize a bit with the mods cause it seems u gonna enter into outerspace on that high horse of yours.

also for kiwi: shut yo sociocology major ass up talkin about lihl identity smh

[Meshtar]

That post is just something I would expect from you Tin. All you do on forum is make inflaming posts, throw random jabs at certain people and add nothing constructive to every single discussion. Except if its about unvouching Supreme. Then you are capable of essay posts and dramatic approach, making it seem that if we don't get rid of him everything will collapse. Well, it seems you got your heart's desire. Now, since you are so happy now, why don't you bring some arguments and focus on the stuff I am talking about rather than trying to explain motives behind my posts. Its the only thing that matters. Attacking the poster personally just shows you got no real arguments, since you are probably the person I played the least lihl games with, you can't possibly know my mindset in game and how I play. Either way, if I put these jabs aside, in this and previous topics that were about this same problem, I never saw anyone saying I am not right, because everyone knows I AM right, the only reason why so many people still dislike these posts is because they know it would affect too many current lihl players and they are afraid of the same thing Tin said, no games, too much waiting time etc. So we will keep pretending we are playing pro games here, because Show must go on, no matter how good the show actually is.

[7years]

Im not done @tinsoldier just taking a break. Thx for appreciating my work here though lad.

However, i can see both sides. Theres a level of activity that is healthy for the community, nr games played etc , also there is always to balance how good the participants are.Its a tough call since this is a decreasing game after all, and not easy to settle in general regarding vouch / unvouches of players.

That being said, i with insight on the staff can assure that there were plenty of replays analyzied and moderation made these calls based on hard facts. The only person i see benefitting here from an emotional standpoint is thor, and moderations saw improvement in his gameplay and good teamplay qualities / attitude. I also like the dude a lot, since he is rly nice and trys his hardest to improve and im sure hell keep that way in the future. Doubt he will be a problem, if it will be well act accordingly to it.
If moderations choose right or wrong i can not tell, since i had no input in any of decisions atm. Im pleasantly surprised about the general moderators activity increase during my absence, used to be a lot worse. There are decent amount of replays on every person analyzed, a fair majority call made for everybody,personal feelings and popularity problems have been discussed aswell.If you want some insight on these work we did, just ask for it, can be provided.
For mickis comment all i can say that elo is fucking flawed, otherwise ace would have lost any reason to be in this league for a long time.I still think hes a better player then me (considering myself on the lower middle skill part myself and gonna be rusty as fuck when i come back to gaming^^)
If you arent happy with moderations decision pls send us the replays and help us out, as explained its limited hours that are spend on it, and ive seen moderations work in general get better over the weeks i stepped away and created a need for other people to step up.Made me aware i made the right move.

Atm i have no clue how strong the performances are in general,but i also dont think meshtar is projecting personal flaws into other people here.Hes a strong opinion based person and he says what he means be it regarded right or wrong by majority nvm the consequences. I like that character trait in a person.Didnt see him pointing fingers a lot person xyz tkes me , get rid of him. That aint his style.
Bottom line, this is the outcome as we have it, and i saw some good hours of work in put by moderation. Things are getting more active and productive, so pls support us in our work and dont work against us. Help us improve and we will get better.
After all were doing this for you guys.

[epicdeath]

I'd like to express some of my own opinions here, please note that these are not necessarily reflective of the moderation team as a whole.

In my view the point of these "purges" as you label them was not to unvouch people until the league is at a standard of "quality games." Rather the purpose was to identify anyone who might have been playing below 'the standard' (note I was not a mod during the selection process for either list) and help them to lift their gameplay with the initial listing and then feedback during the process.

I think if we don't unvouch anyone after one of these list's then it can be called a success for the community as a whole. That shows the players responded positively to feedback and improved the consistency of their play. Activity is currently a concern for us. With reforged coming out the playerbase we have to draw from is far more likely to shrink than expand. Therefore unvouching players that we were concerned about but who have then shown us that they can consistently play at a sufficiently high standard is not only something I don't want to see happen, it's something I simply can't countenance as "right".

Moreover I don't appreciate the work we have put in being labelled as so misguided that it may as well not have been done at all. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but I find the idea that I personally would watch 15 replays- having only been moderator for part of this process- laughable. If I really didn't care at all and was just doing the bare minimum to keep up an image of active moderation I wouldn't have bothered doing any of that and would have based my opinions on the subjective feedback I received, such as that which you have now provided. In fact if I didn't care I wouldn't have bothered to apply in the first place, like any job there are upsides and negatives but getting home from uni/work/social life and getting into some replays is not something I would be doing if I didn't think it would actually benefit the community. And of course this particular job doesn't have the upside of $$$.

I recognise that not all of the work done by the moderation team is transparent or available for everyone to see, however, it frankly doesn't need to be and nor should that diminish its worth. Our decisions were based on analytics and evidence, publicly displaying that would neither change our decisions or benefit anyone besides those curious about it. The community relies on the moderation team to make these kinds of decisions but by the same token we rely on the community to trust that we do work with the best interests of the league at heart and in matters such as this trust that we have reasons for not making every step of our processes public in any given situation.

Finally, while I disagree with much of what you said and the way you phrased it Mesh, I do appreciate your views and the way that you do keep us accountable and force us to back the decisions we make. While I admit reading some of what you wrote did annoy me, it also saw me take another look at my analyses in order to write this response from an honest and well informed position. The only other thing I would suggest is that you apply, your opinions and forthrightness would be an asset.

[Meshtar]

I'd like to clarify some things. First, I don't want to be ungrateful towards people who invest their free time to moderate without any benefits or pay. I will always appreciate the fact that you stepped up, even when it doesn't seem so. That being said, I can keep my gratitude separate from my criticism of your work. I will remind you that it was you, moderators, who asked for this specific approach towards making Lihl better and more competitive. I've had a very different idea, less time demanding than yours for sure. Some other people had even harsher ideas etc. But ultimately, this was your choice. What is my impression though, is that your approach isn't giving any results, be that because the approach is flawed and too time consuming, prone to subjectivity or something else, or maybe because you guys are too mild in judging certain behavior or play. After 4 months of your approach, one active player is unvouched (Supreme) and for the life of me I can't see any notable improvement in the quality of the play of the people you have put into the spotlight as players who need to improve. I argued from the start that you chose way too little people, while you argued that you can only observe a limited number of players and that everyone worth observing will have its turn. So now, focusing only on the people you chose, I don't see improvement in skill and I don't see any less tk from them. Truth be told , what I did see was that they were a bit more careful and mindful during observation period, more likely to take advice, but I am very sure that, same as the previous batch, they will revert to their usual attitude once the observation period ends. Thus my, maybe too harsh, maybe not, criticism of your whole approach and work.
Finally, my intention wasn't to induce some response or change, I have very much given up on that, I just wanted to let you know that I don't believe at all in your claims that your moderation is working, that people are improving and that lihl is getting better in any way. Potemkin's villages.

[Anda]

Had to look up what a potemkin village is, so i learned something today, thank you for that

From what i saw during the last list work on mods i can say if you n micki are right there are imo 4 ways moderation could have come up with a wrong result judging the players:

way 1 : We looked into the wrong replays, since we can only observe a % of games played by everybody here, + feedback replays we got send from players.
Analysis from moderators internally was as detailed as on vouch request, definitely a reasonable amount of time invested in every game checked.The outcome was positive for all people named here on ingame performance, so if you are right it def was the case that we observed replays that showed NOT the general level of gameplay every player is capable of and consistently performing.
What id like to invite the community to do in as an approach to help us get a brighter view, next list time make a replay folder of listed people if you care to help us from games you observed or played with with a small analysis. Doesnt take much time from your side, but it will help us out and we will definitely check most of them, all cannot be done for lack of time i hope yall understand.
Send that in around 4 weeks in the season, well look it up and add to the work we do alone by checking random replays and balance with our personal opinions from own game experience.

Way 2 : Moderation simply has a different opinion on what level of performance is needed to play here then the community, or as example you and mick. If that is the case we have to discuss again how well we think someone has to play to stay vouched. Problem in that scenario is,( i guess im the biggest problem in that regard) that we can only judge based on our own skill level and analyise the games from our perspective. Last time i played( months ago), asides Tom no moderator is skillwise a top tier player ( fate just dont give a fuck anymore i guess , he certainly can be). Seen Crey has improved elo well, so i hope he got better aswell , would help him.
Replay analysis from what i saw was always fine and fair done, so definitely its a problem of skill from our side if this scenario is the case. We would simply have to be incompetent to analyze the replays.
This can only be helped if some top players join moderation staff, or at least get more active in feedback with us and help us discover things we simply judge different.

Way 3: Our view is not as neutral as wed like it to be, personal likings and dislikes cloud the mind. That definitely happens to every person, nobody in the world is free of that, but we try hard to make sure we balance each other out on our flaws and discuss perspectives.The more we base our decisions on replays the less we are prone to be hit by this. If you are under the impression this is an issue, message moderation we will not take it personally but think again about the image we have of every person playing here, since it will always be a subjective perspective, which is simply human nature.

Way 4: Moderators want to do what is popular , not what is the right decision for personal reasons.
If that is the case, and simply no one wants to suffer from the backlash or stress created by making a teamcall and standing with their name for it we need to be made aware of it aswell in an open and fair criticism.Ofc moderators decisions weigh more then players, but i dont think anyone would simply put aside a well based criticism on their judgement, be it in reports or analysises.
If we fuck up in that regard let us know openly and fairly, and we will see if we can fix it should this be a problem.

Read it, think about it for some time to what all of you think is truth, partly truth or simply not the case and if you feel need to respond to us do it in a productive way.We want to improve, but ofc we make mistakes, nobody starts perfect, only way to improve is to get aware that one did a mistake or well repeat it over and over again.

[Meshtar]

If anything, gotta like how your presence improves the feedback and communication, so welcome back
About scenarios you mentioned above, I can only tell you that I have absolutely no clue which scenario applies here. The whole picking the names for the list and evaluating process was done behind the curtains so I suppose mods are the only one who can evaluate their own work, funny as it is
My position about mods trying to keep the peace and quiet rather than moderating was based on some reports and moderating that was public, not about the handling of lists and skill evaluation which was done between mods and hidden from our sight, as you guys requested when this whole approach started.

[Anda]

Ofc you guys can not check in detail which applies, im just reacting to some people here that show disliking with the outcome, therefore i wonder what you people think has happened in our work. You cant comment on closed discussions we make, i just wanted to ask if there is a bright demand on internal work we do to be shown to public, which SHOULD definitely be unnecessary if we do our work right. If there is a huge support for your views that we judged wrong though, we would discuss what part of our work is benefitial to be shown, for example we discussed internally if we should show the replays on supremes unvouch and how we came up with the decision, but we decided against it. That can be done with every player in the future, if there is a demand for it.

[FadingSuns]

Let the mods do their job. There is no need to judge or critize mods work, ur time will come Mesthar, and u will do the things the best u can, different than others but still u will do what u consider best. Thats exactly what they are doing now.

Let them do it, or go apply mod and try change things together with them.

What you are doing here is not helping them, its also not helping community and its not helping urself.

Learn to accept other ppls decissions as they are, theres no need to punctualize every single move they do with what u would have done, also theres no need of more transparency, if u dont trust ur mods then go to the correct forum to write ur essay.

I 100% trust them, no matter if the decission is to unvouch me for tker ill take it like a real man, nn cry, just need grow up...

[nukid]

here we go again .

im not gonna go much into detail and respond to what has been said in this thread here because i feel like (pretty sure its a fact) we had this thread like 3-4 times allready and people keep on bringing up the same arguments and every1 thinks he is 100% right ofcourse. zero room for seeing the other side or even get remotly close to try and understand arguments of one another (exept MC. Schweiz Anda ofc xD).

Just one thing, saying nothing has happend after all the purges and lists and temporary trialthrowbacks is imo not true.

People who were on the list, at least a few and also others actually started to try and improve their game again, asking for help etc.... which brings me to my mainpoint that does not ever get adressed here for w/e reason:

The top players in this league dont give a shit anymore about how to help others and the ones that could learn alot dont seem to be willing to do so.

Take nille for example:
Save to assume hes one of the best players/builders here, Yet literally every game u will here him "does this hold 4?" "2 turret or polar?". While others that could defenetly use some advice are to proud to ask or think the are Ranzgods..

You guys know i talk alot about other guys builds and usually in a...lets say rough tone... but its mostly because i wanna improve the lane/win the game/ or simply try to teach some1 something.

there are still dozens of new faces in lihl and luckily many old experienced and good players that came back over the last year. I just dont understand why people cant put their stick out of their asses and talk to one another without getting offended or thinking some1 means ill just when he talks about ur lane.

this goes especially to the top players to be more vocal and try teach others some and to ALL others to be more open to improve their gameplay (including myself) and not be a bitch and get instantly offended when some1 just trying to help. (no matter the tone)...

their is some people who will happily take any advice and others that think they allrdy masterd this game

i honestly think that is the #1 way of improving lihl but on the other hand we can also do 11 more topics like this