Fangorn - Maphacking

[TakeNRun]

I'd just like to put out there, at times I've had about 400ping and had almost 7seconds delay.

400 ping is 0.4 sec delay and not 7 seconds.

Then try explaining how every game I play on ent, I have over 1 second of delay time. Your methods are inaccurate on displaying proper delay times. I was being dead set serious with what I said, I was in a game with a couple of my clan members, my ping was 424ms, and I even brought out a stopwatch to time it, and I had 7seconds of delay.

[Fangorn]

I have already stated that the lagg were in intervals. I don't feel like I need to say anything more, as this is more of a personal vendetta. The proofs are solid as rock, and yet the ban isn't being lifted.

More interested in how he explains it

You should listen to the best anti-maphacker on ent. I got no experience with Dota Replay Manager, so I'd say we welcome logic, pay attention to Qtrinity

[Fangorn]

You only make yourself look even more stupid by not admitting your mistakes. Qtrinity is the best anti-hacker on ent. That's a fact.
Also, you need to bring up more "evidence" of maphack. So far you've got nothing, and you don't even unban.

[QTriNitY]

I hope i'm getting paid for my time to prove guilty and innocence. Could be playing with Dinos at this time instead of trying to prove my point.

Agreements,

Basing on your selection on Legaras the vile, I said you had a 1 sec difference between yourself and the BOT. Agree?

Now, if Cloudish were to select 2 secs after last vision of target, I will call you a map hacker. Because you were only allowed to have 1 sec's time to complete a selection after FOW sets in. Of cos, my assumption of your maximum allowable time to select is still shaky. This will require me to look at your game play to find suspicious moves before calling you out.

34:09 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Leragas The Vile], 0x00005B3B00005B3B
[spoiler=][/spoiler]
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10:40 <Cloudish> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Leragas The Vile], 0x00005C0E00005C0E
[spoiler=][/spoiler]

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The click by Fangorn on NA.

48:54 was the last vision possible by Fangorn of NA. Selection came in 48:57, 3 secs after last vision. Fangorn previously had a 3 sec delay. Thus I will give Fangorn the benefit of dount of hacking. Makes sense?

49:02 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Nerubian Assassin], 0x0000DE16000061B7
[spoiler=]
[/spoiler]

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I hope to hear from you of Fangorn's suspicious play style in this game. Do note that Scourge (Fangorn's Team) was warding heavily throughout the game.

Further edit, pls temporarily unban Fangorn. We can always ban his noob arse when concrete evidence is available.

[QTriNitY]

Bro, trust me. I have had 100 over games and never once did he convinced me he was map hacking.

[spoiler=]Truth be told, I have scrutinized Vegeta and Fangorn thoroughly their games at ENT. I found nothing of map hack from these BGN imported players. They are decent. And so are you Agreements.[/spoiler]
If ever he map hacks and you guys nab him, I will not side him as a real friend.

Fangorn is a player with good reflexes and maintains heavy wardings throughout all his games.

[QTriNitY]

Im not avoiding...

Please show me game play instances of him suggesting Map Hack. Play style...

No one can hide their game play when they hack. Lags from latency fluctuate throughout the game. I have pointed out his 3 sec lag on Legaras the Vile selection.
Thus the 3 secs fog click on NA should be acceptable. If I did not and could not prove his 3 sec lag, I wouldnt refute with your stated selection ban. Right?

[Fangorn]

I think he tries to tell you that you have your tunnel-vision turned on, and that you are presenting issues that aren't real. As I said, I was lagging throughout nearly the entire game. I considered not joining this game, since I was also lagging in the previous one before this one. Hoped it would stop by then, but it obviously didn't. If relevant, I was also lagging to the bot

[QTriNitY]

Agreements, please unban him for now. If he ever map hack, there will be chances whereby other players will report on Fangorn.

By then, his stats can be wiped and I will come back to view the accusation and to see his noob arse banned.

[QTriNitY]

I said, lag fluctuates. We saw him disconnected and reconnecting via GProxy. Why did he lose his connection? Due to lag seems to be an acceptable explanation.

You can claim that its buggy for everyone else but Fangorn was seen dropping and reconnecting. His lag in this game was evident. Why not give the benefit of doubt?

I am standing firm here, Fangorn indeed lagged and the 3 secs delayed fog click on NA is not sufficient to ban. Ignore what Arty and the rest said (I do not care about their inputs).

Just focus on my demands for any suspicious game play. If you can state one instance, we will discuss on the possibilities of Fangorn Map Hacking.

I'm willing to view any stated unacceptable game play from Fangorn in this or his other games that you choose to relate.

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Edit : If a player map hacks, he will not be buying observers from early to mid game. Wards will be purchased and planted prior a successful hunt to cover up any signs of suspicious game play. Look, most players start off with 875 gold and has consumables to obtain and basic items to build during the Laning Stages. Why would a map hacker waste his gold on Observers from early game (E.g. at 10th min mark) and not gain any kills from them. Setting up wards in Rune areas are not worth the gold just to cover up his map hack vision of Runes.

Please consider how a map hacker behaves. Did he hunt isolated targets?

And again, the selection on Legaras the Vile between you and Fangorn showed him lagging more than you. In both instances, total vision is granted of this shop. Your click was 1 sec delayed while his was 3 secs delayed. Fangorn was lagging more. Can you pls consider this and unban him based on the 1 fog click on NA?

[Fangorn]

Just unban already, you are just bitter that you are wrong at this point. There is no "evidence", nor will there ever be since I got no plans of hacking in this game I enjoy so much. I was lagging alot, end of story. The times I got out are pure reaction, on top of the delay

None is raging except yourself, and insulting. Quit it.

[Fangorn]

Just go over what has been said by Qtrinity so far, and it will make perfectly sense for everyone - you being the exception.

Edit: noticed @medicca and @yondaime handles maphack-requests on the forum, have a look at this please

[Yondaime]

I will check this soon.

[QTriNitY]

Agreements, we need to really consider his play style to ban Fangorn for any possibility of Map Hack.

The lag was already seen by Gproxy and further illustrated by his personal selection on Legaras the Vile. 3 secs for DRM to register a click as opposed to 1 sec by yourself.
(He was lagging more than you, a normal latancy player which could be around 20ms - 30ms)

If you were pinged at 30 ms, a delayed for click by yourself could be 1-2 seconds.

However if a player has a x3 ping of 90 ms, a delayed fog click of 3 seconds is a shaky verdict to rely on.
Why not give him the benefit of Doubt again?

If he wasnt having a lag in the game and executed a 3 second fog click, I will be 50% - 70% sure he was map hacking. But since there's a lag, we really must pull out suspicious game play incidents to strongly pin him for a Map Hacker.

And yes, I'm no longer on Staff. But I can still voice my opinion of uncertainties with bans base on my knowledge of Clicks and Suspicious game play.

If you really want to assert and maintain the ban, please convince me that he did something out of the norm in any of his games please.

[QTriNitY]

Game play Analysis (Game Time)

Situation 1
6:12 - Fangorn had observers purchased, combed Top Rune river but Invis spawned Bottom.
[spoiler=]
[/spoiler]

6:45 - Fangorn made his way despite enemy had already acquired Invis Rune. Lina and Doom were in the vicinity
[spoiler=]
[/spoiler]

6:48 - Fangorn further advanced to this Rune Spot despite Invis was taken and both Doom and Lina were in the vicinity.
[spoiler=]
[/spoiler]
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Situation 2
17:24 - Fangorn remained focused on finishing the creep wave despite Doom's arrival via Lothar's. Enemy Doom and Weaver pwned Fangorn.
[spoiler=]

[/spoiler]
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Situation 3
19:02 - Fangorn narrowly escaped when 2 enemy heroes hunted Scourge's woods.
[spoiler=][/spoiler]
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Situation 4
22:29 - Fangorn made his way to his Top Tier 1 and was intercepted by NA who was under the effects of Vendetta. Another narrow escape.
[spoiler=]

[/spoiler]
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Situation 5
25:22 - All enemy heroes were missing after Sentinels took down Scourge's Mid Tier 1.
He could have safely creep bottom lane but Fangorn chose to immediately TP away when none of the heroes were heading his location.
[spoiler=]
[/spoiler]
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Situation 6
37:02 - NA was again under Vendetta. Fangorn showed no awareness of the threat and continued farming the creep wave.
Escaped after assuming much damage from the aggressor.
[spoiler=]

[/spoiler]
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Situation 7 Youtube Scene - http://youtu.be/xSY1be-banM
43:36 - This could be the most suspicious escape from 2 invis capable enemies, NA and Doom.
However, Fangorn balled out 2 times.
1st Ball - At the foot of where Doom was.
2nd Ball - To the Rune spot.
If Fangorn was Hacking, he would have made a longer Ball to escape, instead of 2 times.
[spoiler=]


[/spoiler]
And perhaps we should ask ourselves, why did he Balled to check Bottom Rune spot when Haste was situated at Top River?
[spoiler=][/spoiler]
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Situation 8
48:56 -The Disputed Fog Click on NA.
I personally deemed that this is a shaky evidence.
49:02 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select subgroup: [Nerubian Assassin], 0x0000DE16000061B7
[spoiler=][/spoiler]
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Game Ended 57th minute. Mega Creeps.
[spoiler=][/spoiler]
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I would like to thank all of you for looking at my findings and appreciate your understanding on how I had translated Fangorn's game play to be acceptable.
The only suspicious incident throughout this game only happened at Situation 7.
However, considering he had balled 2 times with the 2nd one attempting to scout bottom for a Rune when Haste was at Top River, I accepted that this was pure coincidence of an abrupt escape from Doom and NA.

Again, Scene from Situation 7 - http://youtu.be/xSY1be-banM

If my analysis is not complete in anyway, feel free to post situations which I have left out.

Number of times I have reviewed this Replay is Five.

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End of Review.

[TimmyTheTauren]

I don't know DotA at all, so I can't accurately analyze any game-play. I do know ENT bot lags like crazy, though, regardless of your current ping, and despite mathematics. I have experienced two second spikes at times with as low as 16ms ping, as well as close to five second spikes with just 250~ ms ping. I don't know why, I can't explain how, it just happens. Believe or deny what you will, it is a problem.

I also know it is not only unfair, but improper to ban a person based on a delayed fog click. Especially if they have had no previous record in relationship to use or suspicion of such programs.

It is very likely that the 49:02 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select Subgroup: [Nerubian Assassin] 0x000061B70000DE16 click is indeed delayed. I have no idea what the other click is, DRM is saying he didn't click anything between 50:48 and 51:32.

50:48 <Fangorn> 0x19: Select Subgroup: [Doom Bringer] 0x0000653B000115F3
51:32 <Fangorn> 0x16: Remove from selection: 0x0000653B000115F3

I don't see any reason for the back and forth bickering, I see a case where there is simply not enough hard proof. But I guess I may not have all the evidence for whatever reason.