[LTD] vinrael@server.eurobattle.net (2nd opinion)

[Zeratul]

Previous ban request: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=117463

Violator's Warcraft III Username: Vinrael
Violated Rule(s): Antistuck (Cannot be used to delay or prevent units from teleporting to king with the intention to hide units or to aggro units away from king.)
Time of Violation (in-game or replay): At 2.12

The judgment on the mentioned case is wrong imo - Red AS'ed his spawn when blue leaks were no where to be caught by his AS, and red chat was the following:

Code: Select all

2:11 <Vinrael> 0x11: Point order: ancestralspirit (X: -5306.22, Y: 4280.51, flags: 0x0040)[/quote]

[code](03:20 / Allied) Vinrael: i as for orcs run on king
(03:24 / Allied) Vinrael: but he stay

While his english isn't perfect, that AS usage & his chat pretty much confirms what you can see in the replay: Red AS'ed his spawn at 2.12, hoping the leaked warriors, from his team, run to the king (so that his spawn arrives later at mid, not fighting the warriors) - The spawn dind't get "perma stunned" as claimed, his spawn got stuck due to the AS usage from red on it.

I request a 2nd review on this ban request (by another moderator than Bezdak, who processed the 1st case).

Thanks in advance

PS: I did try to talk to Bezdak in private asking to re-evaluate the case, but he remains firm in his decision, ergo why im re-posting the case - Sorry Bezdak, nothing against you, but in this case, the rule violation is clear to me, and thats why i dind't accept your explanation.

[bezdak]

(02:04 / Allied) Vinrael: cmoon
Showing his frustration of getting perma stunned by last 2 warriors, so he can't catch blue's leaks.

(03:01 / Allied) Vinrael: zbs
Indicated a rage from his stuck spawn

(03:20 / Allied) Vinrael: i as for orcs run on king
(03:24 / Allied) Vinrael: but he stay
Complains about the stuck spawn, while he wanted to catch leaks.

I'd prefer @Jabba41 to do this, the case needs an experienced reviewer

[Zeratul]

Well if you wanna copy the zbs to "claim" a rage from his stuck spawn, might as well use the entire chat:

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2:04    [Allies] Vinrael: cmoon
3:01    [Allies] Vinrael: zbs
3:16    [Allies] nachichi: oh well
3:19    [Allies] nachichi: at least tehy dont see
3:20    [Allies] Vinrael: i as for orcs run on king
3:24    [Allies] Vinrael: but he stay

I can agree with you on the 2.04 & 3.01 explanations, but what happens on that 2.12 AS and then even his ally confirms the same ("at least they dont see") -> His AS prevented him from teleporting to the king (and blue leaks were long gone, so can't really call it "late antistuck", and "missed to catch the leaks").

[KiwiLeKiller]

Well if you wanna copy the zbs to "claim" a rage from his stuck spawn, might as well use the entire chat:

Code: Select all

2:04    [Allies] Vinrael: cmoon
3:01    [Allies] Vinrael: zbs
3:16    [Allies] nachichi: oh well
3:19    [Allies] nachichi: at least tehy dont see
3:20    [Allies] Vinrael: i as for orcs run on king
3:24    [Allies] Vinrael: but he stay

I can agree with you on the 2.04 & 3.01 explanations, but what happens on that 2.12 AS and then even his ally confirms the same ("at least they dont see") -> His AS prevented him from teleporting to the king (and blue leaks were long gone, so can't really call it "late antistuck", and "missed to catch the leaks").

But his intention wasn't to hide his unit, it was just to teleport to mid with a little bit of delay and avoid being killed by the warriors. I think it is totally legit. It was just unfortunate that his spawn got stucked.

I agree with @Bezdak

[Zeratul]

But his intention wasn't to hide his unit, it was just to teleport to mid with a little bit of delay and avoid being killed by the warriors. I think it is totally legit. It was just unfortunate that his spawn got stucked.

If we go by that logic, then he clearly broke the rule, as he prevented the spawn from teleporting to the king when he AS'ed (confirming the rule violation)

Thanks for the input tho

[Indrial]

Well, as you can see the mods care about ''intentions'' and the only way how to recognize someones ''intentions'' is to wait how dumb he is, if he will write it down in to chat, that he wanted to abuse something...
The fact remains, that he has abused as to prevent the spawn from teleporting to the king. I mean, something just forced him to use antistuck, wasnt his fault at all. And since it wasnt his intention, he cant be banned for it. 100% sure of it.


Reminds me the cases where people build close to mid at 1200+ and when they pull leaking units from the opposite line, it is considered as ''unintentional'', guess something forced them to build close to mid, the line is just too small for them.

Dumb forces are all around us.

[KiwiLeKiller]

@Indrial
Let me remind you that the rule speaks by itself about intention. Just like the teamkill rule.

While the pulling rule never talks about intention, so you are totally wrong.

@unknownwarrior
Same, the rule says "Cannot be used to delay or prevent units from teleporting to king with the intention to hide units or to aggro units away from king".

Since he didn't have the intention to:
1. Hide units
2. Aggro units away from the king
I think what he did was legit and unfortunate for him, as I said, since his unit got stuck and he couldn't get fat from all the potential feed in mid.

[Zeratul]

So far, it has been known (and pretty much followed) that you can't AS to prevent units from teleporting mid or delay it (unless you're catching leaks, etc. - which wasn't the case here) - You're just basically creating a loophole where he doens't exist (also known as finding new ways to bend the current rule-phrasing): If that is the case, then that means a rule re-phrasing will be needed.

Anyways ill wait for the 2nd moderator confirmation, going back and forth on this topic won't matter, as the last response wont be from any of us.

[Indrial]

Well, Kiwi, in that case, Jabba should be degraded from ent staff.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=113767&p=445712&hilit=nuckfiggers#p445712

[Jabba41]

Will review tomorrow

[Jabba41]

I agree that it wasnt just an unintentional mistake. What was a mistake was that he wasnt aware his fighters would get stucked if they dont pull aggro from creeps after Antistuck.
But him openly telling he did AS in the first place to dodge the orcs (make them run to king) + using AS on creeps (so he is aware of how to use Antistuck) let me rather think he abused it.
Ultimately his mistake lead to a rule break anyway as he was hiding.

I understand that some might say it wasnt intentional,but the things that speak for a abusive usage overweight here.
Chat + AS usage in general + the time he used Antistuck (when it was not even close to catch leaks)

His intenion might not have been to hide, but he broke the rule non theless + would have pulled aggro from king if he would get stucked which is banable too and actually most important here, he just failed to break to break the rule he wanted to break.

So if @bezdak agrees i would go for a short ban here.

[bezdak]

So after Jabba's reviewing, I'm gonna go for a short warning ban to make user aware of having to be more careful with antistuck.

User Vinrael banned for 24 hours as a warning for AS abuse.

Processing.