Scouting

[Lynx]

Split from another topic

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I don't think the titans ability to scout is weak. The scout ability costs no mana so you can spam it when it's off cooldown every time, so it's just natural to balance it out with more area having to be covered. So that is nothing to worry about.

[ShadowZz]

My final problem is a trivial one. Pearl, scouting. Both have arguments regarding skill when scouting. I completely agree that effective scouting is a skill that is learn't. But even if that skill is learn't there is still a great deal of luck required. There are not many games which require "luck" to do something as trivial as finding your enemy, especially in a game where finding them is a trivial task. I remember having a joke with someone about titans who maphack. Titans who maphack naturally seem to win more games than others but ironically enough it only puts them at a silly 60% win ratio tops. Even with full map vision they don't go insanely over the top on wins. Whether that be through intentionally faking their movements or just that people who maphack are bad (not entirely true...) it still stands that having full map vision of your opponents does not win you a game. I'm not suggesting that we give titan full map vision, but the point I'm trying to make is that there are 20+ bases and a pearl covers 3 on average (ish), assuming there and atleast 4-6 players in the game who need a lumber base then the titan is going to find on average like 2 lumber bases every 3-4 pearls (guessing, cba math). For something so trivial as to find stuff to kill it should not be left down to dumb luck.

To address a future issue I see coming up - Fog of war is different. Games like normal Wc3, Sc2 and Dota 2 for example use fog of war to stop you seeing where your enemy is. Agreed. That however does not prevent you from achieving a major goal, Dota 2 addresses it through creep spawns and a general idea of where they are through a base to base interaction (one direction). Sc2, Wc3 addresses it through you still progressing in the game via building your base/creating units. Having vision does not mean you do not progress whereas in ID there is even less chance of you finding your enemy and during that time there is no (zero) progression.

[Lynx]

So you brought up like 3 issues, 1) Need luck to find feed 2) MH win rate is shitty 3) No directions.

I agree with #3.

As for #1, at first glance an inexperienced player might find that feed discoveries are just luck based. I'd say the factors you can control over weigh chance factors.
Examples of things you can consider before scouting an area:

• From what direction the builder arrived at mid
• Popular seeds/lumber bases
• Discovering walls in FoW with the help of pathing
• Skill level of builders
• Individual players preferred lumberbase
• Strategic pearl/floating eye placement
• Time of arrival at mid (Can give an rough estimate of how far away from mid their lumberbase is)

#2 I find your "facts" extremely hard to believe. A titan with MH can just track the builders and kill their base before it's even completed, which requires 0 skill, so either the "facts" are incorrect or MHing titans are shit.

[Stealer]

Tbh we routinely built at euro even if Titan had a floater. You just make delay walls and don't take 4 minutes to base and it's easy to pull off if Titan isn't already 2ft from euro.

If you really want the game to be casual socialism every Titan should get glacious's scouting and have the number of areas and frequency be driven by a ratio of Titan to builder strength.

Good Titan only have problems scouting when there are like 2 builders with lumber bases and even they know where to scout based upon whose playing the builder. It's bad Titans that have trouble and that's because they just walk around the map. If you 'balance' the game around an idiot playing Titan it's going to become extremely screwed when it isn't an idiot.

Titans that maphack fall under the floater at euro category. MH doesn't make up for a lack of skill or ability. By knowing something doesn't mean you can prevent it and if you're a bob it's hard to beat a stack. Look at the brqs for fog clicking builders and watch them play. It's no surprise that they lose; and it won't change if they go Titan. Bad players lose to good even if bad has mh and bad players generally go full nuke no heal so they lose easy to a stack base because they can't seige at all.

[ShadowZz]

Whilst I don't want to invade this topic with this discussion I'd just like to point out something:

@Lynx
The direction arriving to mid: Assuming they follow normal pathing:
Arriving from top right: 9 potential lumber base spots(Some overlap such as skybase could be top left or top right). Pearl covers 3-4 at most meaning 3-4 pearls to fully scout if they arrive from that direction.1/3 or 1/4 chance of finding that builders lumber base. 33.33% or 25% chance.
Arriving bot right: 10 potential lumber bases. Pearl covers 3 at most in this direction. 4 pearls minimum to fully scout. 1/4 chance of finding that builders lumber base. 25% chance.
Arriving from top left: 11 potential lumber bases. Pearl covers 6 on the top left pearl and then 3 and 2 for the remaining. 3 pearls minimum to fully scout. 1/3 chance of finding that builders lumber base. 33.33% chance.
Arriving from bot left: 10 potential lumber bases. Pearl covers 4 on bot left pearl. 4-5 pearls minimum to completely scout. 1/4 or 1/5 chance of finding that builders lumber base. 25% or 20% chance.
At most you have a 33% chance of finding them assuming they followed standard pathing. Seems pretty lucky to me.....
Time of arrival only works at the start of the game and even then it depends on the skill of the players assuming you know every unique player who plays ID (2000+).
Skill level of builders, refer to above statement^^.
Popular lumber bases is the one I actually agree with.
Walls in FoW is only useful in about 4 places and even then we tested it a while back and it gives a lot of false positives depending on the exact position of a wall in comparison to the titans exact position (Wc3 pathing sucks ass, I'm sure you'll agree).

Whilst we might want to cloud ourselves with the idea that it's not luck and it's all skill. It's really not. I'd argue it's 80%+ luck (see above).

@Stealer
I really like that point. Even if you scout something happening you can easily be delayed with 4 upg walls for a base to be fully built.
Whilst I understand your second point there are definitely ways to make titan less based on luck/ridiculous game knowledge without actually changing the games balance (in the long run).
I don't really want to justify your third point with an answer but meh.... Surely you can't believe that only idiots/bad players can't find 2 lumber bases out of 20+ locations?
The MH statement was more of a point than something I thought about, feel free to debunk it .

@Haunt @Neco
Could one of you please move everything after the following comment to it's own topic:

I think he was more hinting to the idea that if you increase the amount of pearl locations needed to cover "useful" bases then it naturally nerfs the titans ability to scout. Which I quite agree with. Every base outside of main pearl spots has major disadvantages because you gain the advantage of not being scouted building it. Adding a base within the top right pearl basically doesn't change balance at all (eh). But adding one where nobody ever pearls and in addition to that you would have to use 1 pearl just to scout that 1 base gives titan a big disadvantage. I like the base, not a big fan of free lumber spots though

Also that would be an OP as fuck gobo fac base.

Thank you.

[Lynx]

Get your facts right.

shadowss.png (160.64 KiB) Viewed 1828 times

1 (+2) top right
3 (+2) bot right
3 (+1) bot left
4 (+0) top left

With some easy logical thinking you'd very easily see where most lumber bases are. However the first few pearls are more luck than skill, but as the game goes longer into 2-3 minutes you can accurately pear/scout.

Note: Added the seeds since they are a major part in finding feed and as these seeds have such a high rate of use it's an very reliable source of experience.

Also, your math is incorrect since it only counts on one builder comes from each corner, the more builders from the same corner the higher are the odds of finding feed in that corner. Probably some other mistakes too, but I didn't read it thoroughly so I might not have noticed it.

[BeeKauzh]

@Shadowzz It seems you included everything that has trees as lumber base, that's simply wrong.
Popular lumber bases: you might think that something is a LB but its really not if no1 ever LB there.
Scouting is stupidly easy, this is why you need to build stall walls and be able to base under 1 minutes.
I also find it easy to keep track of where builders are/going to, but this is more deduction than scouting.

First thing, FOW walls pathing is extremely useful and accurate. It can be used all over the map to find everything.
Second thing, I will include some Pathing from gold mound in here, note that midwalls will lead into false positive.
The rest of the pathing will never lead into false positive.
Yes, I have tested all of the pathing and No I don't think it's ridiculous game knowledge.
Third thing, Deduction. If the LB isnt where you pearled, then its at the other pearling spot. You deduce someone built his LB top left because he came mid from that direction. Why not also deduce pearl spots? I also believe this isn't some ridiculous game knowledge.

Including the bad ones & less used and assuming normal pathing

Arriving from top right: 6 LB, 1 pearl for 3 LB and 1 pearl for 1 LB + Pathing from gold mound for 2 (1 being the most popular for that corner) required to scout everything. 50% chance but if not in first pearl spot then its in the second pearl spot.

Arriving bot right: 8 LB, 2 (1 being the most popular) can be found with Pathing from gold mound, Everything is spaced out but almost in a line, dont pearl here. Instead, go walk between euro & vag and use Pathing to find 5 of them. The remaining one can be found midway from gold mound to there via Pathing.

Arriving from top left: Few people go top left. 7 or 8 LB, only 2 are commonly used and 1 can be found with Pathing from gold mound. 1 pearl for 3 and 1 pearl for 1. If not in first pearl spot then its in the other one 50% chance. The remaining two can be found by moving midway from gold mound to the first LB on the left and using Pathing or by pearling it. This increase the previous spot to 100% chance. All but 1 top left LB can be found by moving between fountain base and first lb on the left with the use of Pathing.

Arriving from bot left: 6 or 7 LB, 1 pearl for 4 LB, 1 pearl for 2. I don't think Pathing from gold mound work on any of those LB. Move midway from gold mound to bot left and use Pathing to find 7 LB.

Top left, Top right and Bot right Corner bases and bot mid are mostly immune to pathing (Unless you're standing next to it, duh).

If you use pathing and know where to pearl, there is very little luck involved. Otherwise there is some luck in scouting (Nowhere near what you said IMO).

I agree that the time of arrival depends on the skill of the person. However, if someone is too early at gold mound for him to LB in a corner, then he didn't LB in a corner.
This can be used later in the game aswell: If you notice that a builder is only gone from mid 1 minute after killing his LB, then he didnt LB far from mid.
You cannot deduce where he built his LB if it takes him a long time to come mid, but you can deduce it if he took a very short time to come mid.

[ShadowZz]

I don't know why I'm bothering to clarify this to be honest.

@Lynx
9 pearls in your picture. At least 10 locations missed of possible lumber bases. You've covered about 50% of locations in about 5-6+mins of pearling. The only "skill" you've used is game knowledge of where people lumber base most of the time. The rest is luck that they will actually go there. All you're doing is making an educated guess. If you don't see why this is luck based, no point continuing.

@Beekauzh
FOW scouting is not even close to accurate. Even the suggestion of that is a joke. It only works if they completely block a intersecting path to force you in a different direction. There's about 3-4 locations where it is standard to build on the intersecting path. Saying that's reliable is a joke. I'd say around 90% of lumber bases do not block pathing.
The next bit of your post is answered above.
I'm really not going through each of the directions you mentioned but just to debunk the first one to prove a point:
Top Right:Top mid base, the entrance of top mid base, just right and below entrance of top mid base, top right base, the base in towards center from top right base, below top right base, above euro base, base top right of mound, sky base. That's 9 bases used on a regular basis, not 6. sky's pathing comes under top and top right. The base above euro depends whether you click bot right of mound or top left as to where your builder walks.
As for the timings, above euro, top right, in towards center from top right, entrance to top middle, below top right are all within 10 seconds of one another for pathing times. Which is easily factored out with time taken to lumber base. No, no you can't decide which lumber base they came from depending on how fast they get to mound.

I'm not going to bother replying anymore because there's no point. Replying to balance in ID feels like bashing my head against a wall repeatedly.

[Lynx]

Replying to balance in ID feels like bashing my head against a wall repeatedly.

The only reason I still post balance suggestions here is to keep you from destroying this game any further.

9 pearls in your picture. At least 10 locations missed of possible lumber bases.

From my experience the probability of one builder is tiny, even smaller with two builders. You'd want to maximize your chance of pearling correct, those are the top bets.

You've covered about 50% of locations in about 5-6+mins of pearling.

Assuming I only use pearl. 50% of the locations, 100% of the builders.

The only "skill" you've used is game knowledge of where people lumber base most of the time.

lol? Of course you'd have to use game knowledge to judge where the best lumber bases are, and then scout them.

The rest is luck that they will actually go there. All you're doing is making an educated guess. If you don't see why this is luck based, no point continuing.

Of course it's an educated guess, you can observe a lot of factors involved and then guess with a very high rate of success. This is why good titans often good titans don't struggle early game and bad titans often do.

If you want to make it easier for the titan to scout the map, add another factor titan can observe in order to guess more precisely. Don't do something dull like narrowing the map down in order for the pearls to be more successful.

[BeeKauzh]

Let me clarify: FOW scouting (or pathing) is very accurate when used outside of mid (you can literally use it everywhere). I'll gladly show tons of pictures of pathing showing where to click and where titan goes if requested.
And rest assured that those pathing do not involve some weird walling.
The only time pathing is not accurate is when everyone LB in a corner resulting in every path being blocked. A pearl anywhere near said corner can fix that.

It only works if they completely block a intersecting path to force you in a different direction.

I guess you never wall your LB, but guess what, most people wall their LB. Therefore, it only works if the LB is blocked which it is 99% of the time.

There's about 3-4 locations where it is standard to build on the intersecting path

In other words: There are 3-4 LBs or Bases that people ever wall.
That's simply wrong, everyone agrees on that.

I'd say around 90% of lumber bases do not block pathing.

This is true when trying from gold mound and the opposite is true when outside of gold mound.

Top Right:Top mid base, the entrance of top mid base, just right and below entrance of top mid base, top right base, the base in towards center from top right base, below top right base, above euro base, base top right of mound, sky base. That's 9 bases used on a regular basis,

Please stop lying? That's not on a regular basis. 1 person in 1000 games LB at sky base and I have yet to see someone LB at the new base midway towards top right. Above euro goes top right or bot right based on which mid walls the builder clicks (I prefer bot right). Sky base can also be found with Pathing from gold mound.

Popular lumber bases: you might think that something is a LB but its really not if no1 ever LB there.

As for the timings, above euro, top right, in towards center from top right, entrance to top middle, below top right are all within 10 seconds of one another for pathing times. Which is easily factored out with time taken to lumber base. No, no you can't decide which lumber base they came from depending on how fast they get to mound.

Sorry, did you expect to be able to guess with 100% accuracy every LB there is based on that? Of course you can't.

I agree that the time of arrival depends on the skill of the person. However, if someone is too early at gold mound for him to LB in a corner, then he didn't LB in a corner.

If he arrives from top left 10 seconds after spawn, he cant be top left but he can be mid left and fountain base. Yes, yes you can remove a few of them based on timings. You can guess which one it is not. You can only do this for a few LB, Not sure why you expect it to work on every LB when so many are so close to eachother.

Lynx also mentioned something important:

Also, your math is incorrect since it only counts on one builder comes from each corner, the more builders from the same corner the higher are the odds of finding feed in that corner.

[Burn]

At the moment pearling bot left in pubs is still the best. You get to scout out 4 popular lumber bases in that area. If you don't scout bot left, I head straight towards burnbase, summon a scout, and scout the one just left of mound, which goes past fountain base and the lumber base above fountain base. That's 7 lumber bases and the most popular early base nearly instantly.

I always save scout bird for worker feed.

No need for pathing abuse and you can do it on any titan if you just buy a pearl. If you can't find any bases, just feed off mid walls for a bit before builders get RC for webbed feet/wotw/ward or you can just sell ankh. Pathing abuse isn't worth it imo, but maybe you can be lucky sometimes.

Inhouses are different, but generally there will be someone at burnbase or the lumber base behind it.

-Burn

[fishy_joes]

Its not hard to figure out where people usually lumber base, and even less difficult to get good at titan. Why is arguing about changing titans scouting abilities even a issue. Anyone who is decent at titan has no problem with the scouting abilities. I think the scouting abilities are fine as they are.

[Lynx]

The topic on this debate was that ShadowZz didn't think it was a good idea to spread out good bases away from the good pearl spots, I disagreed and said that titans ability to scout the map was arguably too strong and with the recent change with scouting abilities mana cost it is natural for the map to transition into a more split map (split map = space between bases increase so the effective pearl area is reduced).