Bitching about experience... (again)

[ShadowZz]

I thought level 9 at 10 minutes would be more than enough proof to show everyone that there is definitely something wrong (afaik everyone in the thread who has played 3.0.9d extensively has agreed). I agree my proof isn't the best, it's because I'm lazy, not because I'm nostalgic or a bandwagoner. But Neco's proof isn't the best either, how do we know he isn't just making that graph up? I could also create a fake graph right now. But still, I am 100% certain that there is something different in leveling.

So how do we proceed? By obtaining the following information from both versions.

Amount of experience needed per each different Titan level. (Maybe even check if there is a difference in this between the Titans)
Amount of experience each unit and structure is worth.
Starting experience feedage percentage per individual builder. (I think builders started at 90% and supports at like 110% in 3.0.9d)
Experience reduction curve (Sorry Neco, I just don't believe yours is true. Maybe if you tell me your method I'll change my mind)

From gathering these we will most likely find the problem. Maybe I'm completely wrong, and wouldn't that be juicy? It might just be a meta change as walls have been easier to kill and thus the Titan can accomplish more. But I'd be very surprised if that small change would be so significant.

Anyways, it's useless to argue here any further. We should do either of these options;
1) The lazy route: Nerf leveling, because as it stands right now it's way to imbalanced.
2) The hard route: Find the information above and correct the issue from that information.


Disclaimer: No, I'm not nostalgic for 3.0.9d. I genuinely want to enjoy 4.0.0, but it's hard to enjoy something imbalanced. That's why I'm ranting about balance all the time.

How many people are going to have to come into this conversation and tell you to go test it yourself?

READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY - GO AND TEST IT.

[Lynx]

I don't see why I should do this myself, sure it was I who brought up the issue this time but don't we all strive towards a more balanced game? But I will test it as soon as I have time to spare.

I just said what we needed to do, which included testing.

You don't "feel" something like this. You know it, the extreme rarity of a level 9 titan at the 10 minute mark is next to non-existant in a previously balanced version of ID. Here's an example for you, it's about the same chance as a hero in League of Legends will be max level 15 minutes in.

Here is a level 9 titan 27 minutes into the game in 3.0.9d. The titan was played by JeeeP (is that ImANewby's alt?) who is a pretty decent pub titan nonetheless. Here is a link to the game. And here is a pic if you're lazy.

Level 9 at 27 minutes.png (4.16 MiB) Viewed 1195 times

edit: seems like shadowzz post got removed somehow

[Haunt]

I removed it because I was sure it would just stir drama.

Surprisingly, you didn't continue, thank you for that. I'll just restore it and edit it a little to make it sound more... Friendly.

I don't really mind you guys arguing, just try to sound less condescending.

[FollowingPath]

I didn't check the replay, but judging from his items I'm going to pressume that he didn't get nearly as much feed as Fossurious did in his game. Why are we comparing a case where titan isn't fed to a game where titan is? Unless JeeeP had a similar game to Foss in that he got a lot of feed, you can't compare these two games. I've seen titans in 4.0.0 that are level 7 by GP, maybe that means we should buff exp rates?

[ShadowZz]

I've seen titans lvl 5 at GP when they are actually trying....

[Lynx]

I didn't check the replay, but judging from his items I'm going to pressume that he didn't get nearly as much feed as Fossurious did in his game. Why are we comparing a case where titan isn't fed to a game where titan is? Unless JeeeP had a similar game to Foss in that he got a lot of feed, you can't compare these two games. I've seen titans in 4.0.0 that are level 7 by GP, maybe that means we should buff exp rates?

Assuming.

Watch the game. I skimmed through it and it looked like a decently farmed titan. Probably had some items in mound considering it's 3.0.9d and shop has cd. And fossurious game wasn't that much feed.

[BeeKauzh]

Then I guess we can't trust your word for anything, as all ultimates were made obtainable at level 12 in version 0101.

Was that suppose to prove a point? It doesn't change the fact that someone named Neco told me this a long time ago.
The only thing I am unsure of is when and where u told me this. Clan bti or in a priv game u hosted using bti bot? before/early alpha or just before beta? Alpha wasnt that long.
You told me this, can't deny that.

[BeeKauzh]

@Shadowzz READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY - GO AND TEST IT.

Instead of testing this in a private game, I suggest testing it in a pub game & see the reality.
Titans do get higher level than before. XP rate didnt change? Fine, then something else cause titans to get higher level.

More LBs are nukeable now. Fact
Fewer seeds means more LBs. Fact
Fewer supports are available to pick. Fact, no sat & huntress means these people have to play something else that may feed more.
-UP make it so there is at most 2 supports per game (mag & demo) and 1 gob. Fact, This mean more people have to build LBs.
More titans try to nuke workers now. Possible, alot of titan would ignore seeds and more people build LBs now.
Not getting minions in the first 3 minutes means more builders survive to feed another day. Possible, early minions often led to other early minions.
Builders just build more stuff to feed. Possible
Fewer builders deto their workers. Possible
Titans got better/builders got worse. Possible
Fewer people hide in euro/other people's bases and wait. Possible
Probably something else?

In 9d pubs, Max titan level was around 7, In 2k games I've rarely seen someone higher level than that.
In 400 pubs, Max titan level is 9-10, In 1k games I've regularly seen people reach 7-8-9.

[Lynx]

@Shadowzz READ THIS VERY CAREFULLY - GO AND TEST IT.

Instead of testing this in a private game, I suggest testing it in a pub game & see the reality.
Titans do get higher level than before. XP rate didnt change? Fine, then something else cause titans to get higher level.

More LBs are nukeable now. Fact
Fewer seeds means more LBs. Fact
Fewer supports are available to pick. Fact, no sat & huntress means these people have to play something else that may feed more.
-UP make it so there is at most 2 supports per game (mag & demo) and 1 gob. Fact, This mean more people have to build LBs.
More titans try to nuke workers now. Possible, alot of titan would ignore seeds and more people build LBs now.
Not getting minions in the first 3 minutes means more builders survive to feed another day. Possible, early minions often led to other early minions.
Builders just build more stuff to feed. Possible
Fewer builders deto their workers. Possible
Titans got better/builders got worse. Possible
Fewer people hide in euro/other people's bases and wait. Possible
Probably something else?

In 9d pubs, Max titan level was around 7, In 2k games I've rarely seen someone higher level than that.
In 400 pubs, Max titan level is 9-10, In 1k games I've regularly seen people reach 7-8-9.

Agreed. There is nothing to argue about, all are true. I think the most significant change is walls being a lot easier to kill, and thus freeing up precious time and other resources to the titan. Feeding off of walls alone is definitely a strategy more viable than ever before, as long as you keep builders from golding.

All these facts, surely mustn't they not warrant some kind of major nerf to leveling?

[FollowingPath]

IMO there's no need to nerf the exp gain just because builders don't go out of their way to prevent titan from nuking their lumberbases. It's a playstyle and a skill gap to lumberbase in spots that can't be nuked, and if they can then build walls or use harvesters to prevent it. If what Bee stated is actually what's causing it, then it can also easily be prevented by decent players.

[1337hamburger]

I agree with followingpath; players can make a very simple effort of making their harvs be in an un-nukeable area, and it will hugely cripple the titan. . . yet even players in ih games seem to struggle with this for some reason.

[Lynx]

I disagree. In previous version I've have been able to keep my feed down to 0-200 in 30 minutes. In this version, when I tryhard I reach numbers like 400-800.

You can only prevent so much, there is way more you feed that you can't deny than what you can (and if you are doing a full deny, you just create more feed in walls). Basically the titan exists and there is nothing you can do to stop him from wrecking havoc all around.

Take a look at the IH we played, INSANE amounts of feed were being fed with a fullhouse of the best players 2016 has to offer.

yet even players in ih games seem to struggle with this for some reason.

For the reasons we are arguing. You obviously agree that there is some reason, what's yours? People are just bad or any other reason?

[1337hamburger]

I wouldn't say people are just bad, but people don't try at all. Look at last ih, tnfu rushed 45 gold then built mak arc out in the open. People just take playing builder as a joke and take playing titan very seriosuly.

[Burn]

I'm not nostalgic for 309d either. There are fuckloads of awesome updates that Neco made, like Faerie invuln phase shift, early upgraded walls nerf, Mak/Gnoll/Murloc tower buffs, Wand of Neut, TP stick nerf, etc.

But, these small tweaks does not outweigh the numerous retarded buffs/nerfs that Neco has made, especially the EXP system, which is basically the centerpiece of Island Defense. You can't remake the EXP system and expect pubs to change their play-style.

The average pub doesn't read patch notes, they're okay with 1k feed every game.

The main thing is Neco doesn't communicate these major changes that he makes to the game, and that is really detrimental to the Island Defense community with these terrible changes. Again, he makes many really good changes, but these bad changes are ruining the game. When Neco starts asking the community about major nerfs or buffs BEFORE he makes them, I will start supporting him again.

The game being an alpha/beta is no excuse. Let's face it, it's the main version already, doesn't matter what you call it. You need to aim for perfection, it's been like a year.

-Burn

[Lynx]

Not necessarily asking the community, rather that he gives a good explanation to the major changes he does, it's a community game after all. Some changes seem arbitrary, biased and personal. For example, golding change, removal of seeds, and complete remake of tech tree are just some on the top of my head I can think of that just leaves me questioning.

I also get the impression that he values the suggestion giver more than the suggestion itself.

The topic is moving a bit off.

I wouldn't say people are just bad, but people don't try at all. Look at last ih, tnfu rushed 45 gold then built mak arc out in the open. People just take playing builder as a joke and take playing titan very seriosuly.

For people to start trying, there must be a incentive to try. The incentive should be having a quality ID game. They are just so hard to come by with the current imbalanced meta game.