Huntress, Panda, and Foss

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Ben_T
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Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Ben_T » Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:00 pm

Hey everyone, I wanted some other opinions on what the future of huntress, panda, and foss should be in Island Defense. Some people want them back the way they were in 3.0.9d (with the bugs fixed), some people want a new modified version of them, and some people don't want them in the game at all.

As many people are not on the discord and can not voice their opinions, I have come to the forums.

Here are some of the ideas/concepts for panda: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... -1.2.9.pdf

There are no concrete ideas for huntress or foss yet.

Any thoughts or opinions on this topic would be appreciated!
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chaowner (Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:32 am) • Panopticon (Fri Mar 30, 2018 8:23 pm)

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby ParkMinYoung » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:34 am

scrap em and implement blinky imo
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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby chaowner » Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:41 am

On the panda PDF file i like the thought of researching each element and mastering only 1 in the end but i hate the idea of essences and elementizing walls/towers, so in that case i would say stick with the researches more like original and keep normal walls and towers how they were already since that was a great proven setup.

As far as remaking the builders i think the base ideas were great already they started on the right track and need to continue on their track with of course as Ben_T mentioned all bugs/glitches fixed and researches finished since the community absolutely loved them all and would love to see very similar ones return without massive changes.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Burn » Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:32 am

Pretty good, seems interesting. Would like to see undead style building + human + orc + NE style(maybe with workers) building all in one builder.

-Burn

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Lynx » Mon Apr 02, 2018 8:10 pm

An issue i see with this builder (as was with the old panda) is his extreme need for lumber. The old panda could create really strong bases but he would require 40-50k lumber to make a base of equivalent power of a 30k lumber makrura/gnoll base. Which is natural of course seeing as there is 3 specializations, each with research tiers as deep as a normal builder. This builder would require extremely delicate balancing, as if its solo basing capabilities are on par with gnoll/makrura its supporting capabilities will be too cheap and powerful and vice versa if its supporting capabilities are on par with magnataur/demonoligist its solo basing capabilities will be too expensive and weak. The latter one was the state the old panda was in before it got removed.

To circumvent this issue completely I suggest splitting the panda builder into 4 individual builders normal/fire/air/earth.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Burn » Tue Apr 03, 2018 9:25 pm

He's a great double baser. Has option for fire for DPS, storm for ranged.His storm towers make him an asset in large bases.

Imo, him having multiple forms makes him more interesting (albeit, probably will be buggy).

-Burn

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Remixer » Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:26 pm

The reason we decided to limit his forms to only 1 (full power) is exactly what Lynx pointed out. The old Panda either excels in too many areas and sadly, one or two of them are good and rest are not, if they're all good he's too strong and it quickly becomes extremely hard to balance out, taking into account all the combinations that he can be involved in - it becomes paradoxal editing and tweaking extremely fast.

Also, compared to many other Builders nowadays, the old Panda is by far too slow to progress.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Merex » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:38 pm

Remixer wrote:The reason we decided to limit his forms to only 1 (full power) is exactly what Lynx pointed out. The old Panda either excels in too many areas and sadly, one or two of them are good and rest are not, if they're all good he's too strong and it quickly becomes extremely hard to balance out, taking into account all the combinations that he can be involved in - it becomes paradoxal editing and tweaking extremely fast.

Also, compared to many other Builders nowadays, the old Panda is by far too slow to progress.

What exactly was wrong with the old Panda? I've honestly seen no issues arise from him, back then and the present.

It's just unnecessary to change a builder that doesn't need to be changed. If there wasn't anything critical in Panda, just bring back the original. And no, Panda was not too slow to progress in anyway in my opinion, I'd also like to see some evidence be brought to light regarding that.
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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Burn » Wed Apr 04, 2018 9:42 pm

Agreed, nothing unbalanced about the old panda, he needed gold to get setup, just like draenei.

Only thing buggy was because when he switched forms, his split CD would reset, which was a huge problem because that meant infinite cyclone, which was probably the main reason he was removed.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Remixer » Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:46 am

The issue I have with the old panda is that he excels in every possible area of the game: he's baser, he's golder, he's waller, he's support - he is literally everything and at the same time even. In my opinion, no builder, nor Titan, should excel in every single area, they must have their own weaknesses that get rewarded for strengths.

The old Panda was gold-heavy and once he got rolling there was little one could do about him. If he failed... well then he failed. In quite similar fashion that Satyr is now: if he fails to gold at start and TItan denies access to gold there is literally nothing that a Satyr can do and I don't think it's something to be chased.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Burn » Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:48 pm

Goblin/draenei/radio/faerie/Tauren (the more gold heavy builders) with 30g was much more devastating than panda with 30g in both the 309d inhouses/pubs, let alone 45g. I think that'll hold true even for 4.0.0.

I feel it's unnecessary to re-create panda, but to reinforce panda and make him more fun with your new ideas like the essence thing. Although, I have to say the new panda also seems quite fun too.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Remixer » Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:43 pm

Burn wrote:Goblin/draenei/radio/faerie/Tauren (the more gold heavy builders) with 30g was much more devastating than panda with 30g in both the 309d inhouses/pubs, let alone 45g. I think that'll hold true even for 4.0.0.

I feel it's unnecessary to re-create panda, but to reinforce panda and make him more fun with your new ideas like the essence thing. Although, I have to say the new panda also seems quite fun too.

-Burn

The thing is that long-term goal is to make the gameplay balanced on realistic possibilities. When it might be fun to have a fully-developed solo Panda base that is superior to anything else, it is not at all realistic scenario - if it was it would be just too strong. If the realism is that good Titans won't let Panda gain "enough" gold to develop too far I don't see players hopping around in happiness because they can only do trash and after that they run out of gold. Having too many things to upgrade means that in realistic scenario you would not be able to research everything at the same time. The old Panda has the flaw that this is the general idea behind it - to master everything - and thus the things you in reality do manage to research to their full potential are not as good as they SHOULD be, but only as good as they SHOULD be, taking into account that he COULD research everything. I'd rather have Builders and Titans that are good at what they're meant to do, instead of being these one-time wonders who excel in everything IF the certain requirements are fulfilled.

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Merex » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:19 pm

Remixer wrote:
Burn wrote:Goblin/draenei/radio/faerie/Tauren (the more gold heavy builders) with 30g was much more devastating than panda with 30g in both the 309d inhouses/pubs, let alone 45g. I think that'll hold true even for 4.0.0.

I feel it's unnecessary to re-create panda, but to reinforce panda and make him more fun with your new ideas like the essence thing. Although, I have to say the new panda also seems quite fun too.

-Burn

The thing is that long-term goal is to make the gameplay balanced on realistic possibilities. When it might be fun to have a fully-developed solo Panda base that is superior to anything else, it is not at all realistic scenario - if it was it would be just too strong. If the realism is that good Titans won't let Panda gain "enough" gold to develop too far I don't see players hopping around in happiness because they can only do trash and after that they run out of gold. Having too many things to upgrade means that in realistic scenario you would not be able to research everything at the same time. The old Panda has the flaw that this is the general idea behind it - to master everything - and thus the things you in reality do manage to research to their full potential are not as good as they SHOULD be, but only as good as they SHOULD be, taking into account that he COULD research everything. I'd rather have Builders and Titans that are good at what they're meant to do, instead of being these one-time wonders who excel in everything IF the certain requirements are fulfilled.

Having panda require higher lumber and gold to make such powerful bases wasn't enough of a realistic possibility to you?

Honestly, it just seems like you and dragon are finding reasons to get rid of the old panda.

When it might be fun to have a fully-developed solo Panda base that is superior to anything else, it is not at all realistic scenario - if it was it would be just too strong.

"Fun" is what keeps a game appealing. "Fun" is what makes players want to come back to that game. Can you say as a developer that you're willing to kill fun in the game just to suit your own ideal of game balancing? Because if panda was truly an issue, players of the game would speak up to support it but we've yet to see that in both the Discord and here.

I'd also like to point out that a panda base to reach the height of what it is requires a fairly large amount of gold and even larger amount of lumber. To give an idea - What's required of let's say murloc mega base is 2x the amount for panda, maybe even 3x not sure since it's been so long without him.

If the realism is that good Titans won't let Panda gain "enough" gold to develop too far I don't see players hopping around in happiness because they can only do trash and after that they run out of gold.

There were plenty of innovative play-styles behind panda without the preferred amount of gold he held. For example - Storm panda being able to make lightning towers, an earth panda being able to make golem walls or even a fire panda willing to make volcanos for a base. The argument you're trying to make is that panda is either trash or it's superior without any middle man and that simply isn't true.

Having too many things to upgrade means that in realistic scenario you would not be able to research everything at the same time. The old Panda has the flaw that this is the general idea behind it - to master everything

That's perfectly fine. Honestly, some days I'd rather contribute to a fellow baser and focus on my tankiness and my golem walls with the earth panda. Other days, I may feel like making a volcano base and holding a type of tauren-like base and (most days tbh) I'd feel like making a spire base and running around with my storm box. Having those options to me were very intriguing and gave me plenty of incentive to play him on a daily basis.

Even if I didn't reach the potential of even having those 3 forms, the little gold I had went into his battle training, following that I'd make dart bases if necessary to secure the victory. The "realistic" scenario is that if a panda can't progress as well as we can - there's a fallback strategy. Of course it's not as fun as intended but then he just turns into every other builder, essentially.

I'd rather have Builders and Titans that are good at what they're meant to do, instead of being these one-time wonders who excel in everything IF the certain requirements are fulfilled.

Panda is meant to be the hybrid in between builders, that's exactly why he existed to begin with. That is why the developers before you decided to even make a hybrid-like builder. Because if they continued to make murloc-based builders, the very "fun" that you're trying to deny just wouldn't exist in ID and therefor boredom would eventually take place in the everyday games I personally enjoyed a lot in 3.0.9d.

Also no offense but this is just a weak argument here. Every builder that exists has multiple unique purposes. A satyr is meant to be greedy and pursue his own doings or he's meant to pump damage and be supportive to a base. A magnataur is meant to be tanky and viscious or he's meant to be protective and pump glacier walls. A tauren is meant to be offensive with his ancestral or he's meant to be a baser - point being, they exist in more than one unique scenario as you're trying to say. Also, titans are an unfair comparison here because they're essentially an entire different aspect of the game.
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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Burn » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:16 am

I agree, hybrid builders are more fun. I ban murloc/dryad/pirate every game because they're only basers and I like the option of either supporting/basing. Rarely do I play a game where I can do both anyway, so I don't mind the new concept, although I still agree the old panda is balanced enough to release, and still pretty sure only reason why he was removed was because of the bugs.

Depending on how the devs do it, the new concept panda will still allow panda being a hybrid builder:

"You can “study” all three elements (Storm, Earth and Fire) via your Research Center up to a certain point, slowly unlocking different abilities of each specific element studied."

Means you can still study all three elements, but you can't get a fully buffed panda of all three elements. I think that's fine, tbh. Normally in games you don't get enough resources to research all three anyway and essences shouldn't going to be that strong imo, just something to do while you wait afk in base.

"You are limited to only one Final Studies of a kind, and cannot finalize all three elements, but only one element of your choice."

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Re: Huntress, Panda, and Foss

Postby Remixer » Sat Apr 07, 2018 12:10 pm

Av1oN wrote:Having panda require higher lumber and gold to make such powerful bases wasn't enough of a realistic possibility to you?
See the last quote on this post.

Av1oN wrote:Honestly, some days I'd rather contribute to a fellow baser and focus on my tankiness and my golem walls with the earth panda. Other days, I may feel like making a volcano base and holding a type of tauren-like base and (most days tbh) I'd feel like making a spire base and running around with my storm box. Having those options to me were very intriguing and gave me plenty of incentive to play him on a daily basis.
Yes... and that is still possible, but you are going to be better at what you want to do, making it bigger and better than the old Panda, and you are not going to be as good in the stuff that you don't want to do.

Av1oN wrote:Panda is meant to be the hybrid in between builders, that's exactly why he existed to begin with. That is why the developers before you decided to even make a hybrid-like builder.
And he still remains as a hybrid, I don't see the point here. I think you misunderstood the quote.

Burn wrote:Normally in games you don't get enough resources to research all three anyway
That is my point on "realistic" chances and balancing between realistic and unrealistic chances can't bring the balance I want to have.


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