Balance Suggestions

[dlNO]

EXP system rework was before demo was op.... EXP system rework was about 6 months before it was even mentioned as a problem by anyone....

Why does the time something was discovered mean something?

[Burn]

The day Neco recognises that EXP system is fucked, and starts learning how to nerf builders from OP to utter shit, is when I might regain a bit of hope for him as an editor.

- Every nerf needs to be accompanied by a buff to satisfy QoL. As much gripe that Neco has gotten from removing Tauren fort. armour, tauren was good in this aspect, his fort. armour removal was accompanied with a tower buff. In return, Morphling/Demo got shat on, with basically no buffs. That's not the way to go.
- Every major rework, major nerf or major buff (like morphling nerf or demo/exp system rework), needs to be tested in closed beta fuckloads (even though we lack alpha testers, we need to raise awareness for more testers for inhouse alpha tests) or posted on the forums before implemented onto ENTID.

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EXP system nerf
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Currently the top tier titans are just wrecking face, Granit, Molt, Luci, etc.

For now, we can try out a simple but major nerf to EXP system:
1) The Upgraded walls and unupgraded walls feed rate to 309d. And make Demo walls feed the same amount as 309d mag walls.
2) For a minor buff to counter the EXP nerf, make fruit trees feed 15% more EXP.

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Level system nerf
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1) Make it so you can only get lvl 4 heal at lvl 7, and lvl 3 nuke at lvl 5.

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Builders nerfed to the ground:
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Morphling. He used to be top dog, now he is a base supporter with spell shield and back tower builder at best. He rarely ever gets the opportunity to get gold for beast form before GP because he dies in one wotw at mid. Basically useless in inhouses.

1) Give him a spell called rush that costs no mana that also increases move speed in warrior form so he gets gold easier.
Forward rush
Rushes the Morphling warrior towards a destination, then gives maximum move speed for 5 seconds.

Demonologist:
1) Reduce ARC cost by 5G.
2) Make doubles cost 20G overall like before. In 309d, it was 800W + 5G 1500W + 15G 3000W. Now it is God knows how much with an addition to sac gold, it is mind numbingly hard to do anything against a decent titan.

Shitty builders/titans that need buffing:
1) Murloc towers need another +5 damage on all levels and his Hunter given 5-5 more damage.
2) Troll towers need +5 damage on all levels, and wall spike upgrades giving 5 armour each time.
3) Give tauren magic resistance and fort armour back with his +100HP upgrade which costs 15G 500W. At the moment, tauren support is basically useless compared to mag because of wand of neut, if he ever goes that route.

Voltron minion nukes:
1) Just wow.

Granit minions nuke range:
2) Many more wows.

-Burn

[1337hamburger]

I think one thing that we all need to acknowledge first off is that more than 99% of island defense games being played are public games. I don't think it is right for the game to be heavily edited in favor of once-a-month inhouses instead of public games. To put it simply it is incredibly easy for experienced players to join a public game and win as titan, but the thing that we need to remember is that it is a 10v1 game with a huge learning curve for the titan. I think that the game will never be able to reach a level of balance that many people seem to yearn for, there is just no balancing a game where its 10v1; because one game a titan might join and has a total game count that outnumbers all the builders in the lobby combined, then the next game a titan could join the lobby that just started playing island defense and thinks that titan is really fun. Basically what I'm saying is that this game would be a million times easier to balance if it were being balanced just for lobbies where there is nothing but "elite players" but as I said; that is like one in a few hundred games played.

Okay, moving on:

1) Make it so you can only get lvl 4 heal at lvl 7, and lvl 3 nuke at lvl 5.

I agree with the heal, the titan shouldn't be able to become such a seiging power-house so early. Although I think that level 3 nuke with a level 4 titan can really change the dynamic of game play (for the better imo), if a titan can kill builders with back-to-back nukes early in the game then the titan can pressure builders not to gold as heavily. (In 309d for example the titan could do this with wotw stacks, but seeing as the wotw has a fairly long cd now it isn't as effective or scary.)

Morphling. He used to be top dog, now he is a base supporter with spell shield and back tower builder at best. He rarely ever gets the opportunity to get gold for beast form before GP because he dies in one wotw at mid. Basically useless in inhouses.

I disagree heavily here, morphling was absolutely 100% op in 309d (in my eyes), 33% eva 400hp with fort arm after just 10 gold was really just crazy imo. Also I'm not sure on exact numbers but since morphlings towers got buffed by 5dmg I've seen quite a few morph bases hold quite well. My biggest thing about morphling though is the complete under use of beast form, I constantly see both new and old players sink all their gold right into their 16 armor and sometimes even hp from their rc. Morphs beast form is incredibly strong for base supporting, and fairly strong for ganking also, if players don't tech straight to 16 armor they can get beast form at the 30min mark without getting any gold from the mound, turning their builder into a re-walling machine, with fort armor and well over 1k hp.

Rushes the Morphling warrior towards a destination, then gives maximum move speed for 5 seconds.

Maybe we could get some testing on this somehow, but to me this seems like it will make morphling nearly unkillable early game.

I agree demo is currently far to gold heavy.
Murloc is also all around weak in my eyes, would love to see 800 range supers.

2) Troll towers need +5 damage on all levels, and wall spike upgrades giving 5 armour each time.

This would bring troll walls to 25 armor with spiked walls right? Seems way too strong imo

3) Give tauren magic resistance and fort armour back with his +100HP upgrade which costs 15G 500W. At the moment, tauren support is basically useless compared to mag because of wand of neut, if he ever goes that route.

I would really be disheartened to see fort armor come back to tauren, tauren is already an builder that is almost impossible to kill, where as the other supports are easily killed if caught out in the open. Also I think that spell resistance could be very viable as an upgrade.

And of the last topic: I completely agree, volt minis and gran minis are basically trash when it comes to their nukes.

[Burn]

Fort armour on tauren is also an upgrade with the magic resistance.

Troll walls with 25 armour ain't no biggie since he was nerfed so hard a titan could sneeze and blow him away.

Morph sucks in inhouses and pubs at the moment in 4.x.x, basically useless. All I ever see him do is spam spell shield, or the rare case of him getting beast form at GP.

-Burn

[ShadowZz]

Just because people don't use something it doesn't mean it's not good.... Beast form is still insane but people don't bother going for it and instead try to get 1400hp warriors...

[dlNO]

Every nerf needs to be accompanied by a buff to satisfy QoL.

-Burn

Explain this, rule, this rule of yours, please.
The only time you would accompany a -1 with a +1 is if it began as a 10/10.
Which you have stated contrary, numerous times, that you see ID as not balanced.
Please explain this rule of yours.

[GunTroll]

To put it simply it is incredibly easy for experienced players to join a public game and win as titan, but the thing that we need to remember is that it is a 10v1 game with a huge learning curve for the titan. I think that the game will never be able to reach a level of balance that many people seem to yearn for, there is just no balancing a game where its 10v1; because one game a titan might join and has a total game count that outnumbers all the builders in the lobby combined, then the next game a titan could join the lobby that just started playing island defense and thinks that titan is really fun.

its also so counterintuitiv. Its called Island Defense yet basing usually lowers your income, makes you an easy target for periodic worker nukes and if you fail you lose the game for everyone. On the titans site its the same, run around nuke workers, kill walls, dont siege because its a waste of time.....

Most People who play ID are not going to hunt a minion wich is pretty much your only option if you want to win against someone competent...
the Titan economy needs adjustment. Someone posted somewhere that it would be good to multiply every bounty by 10 to give you more room for changes. (im pretty sure you can export OE data so someone else could do that)

I would lower the cost of ugraded walls the xp they give and their bounty
in exchange a small bounty should be added to workers
Shelters could give more gold xp etc.
Some builders should get more workers(mag, demon, gob)
Nat army and Demon summons less

even players who do not actively hunt minions could take part in walling the map its also one of the only ways to kill a minion

Most hybrids/full supports are too reliant on gold they need to be able to do something after there is a minion.
For example demon should get 5 succubi with an abillity to transform from 100 hp (to make them nukeable) to 300-400 hp. spirit link would be a really great basic spell For a no gold Demon

Titan minions should spawn with lvl 1 when he gets a kill b4 the 3 min mark, that way he is forced to level it up wich gives the builders time to kill it/ get gold. Dont hate me but there should not be a second minion b4 the 7~9 min mark. A single minion should also respawn There should be a way to get a minion without killing a builder

I know i didnt explain most of the things well but i hope you can see what im trying to do with these changes...


Also fuck this g2L bullshit in the shelter! that should not be possible untill you have a merchant

[Lynx]

+1

[dlNO]

@burn
sry forgot to tag you in my above response.

[Sethy]

Every nerf needs to be accompanied by a buff to satisfy QoL.

-Burn

Explain this, rule, this rule of yours, please.
The only time you would accompany a -1 with a +1 is if it began as a 10/10.
Which you have stated contrary, numerous times, that you see ID as not balanced.
Please explain this rule of yours.

I think this is because the ideology/mentality of a lot of video game developers in buffs/nerfs is to not just nerf numbers, but to change the playstyle of the hero or builder in this case. This is because it keeps the game dynamic and fresh, and when you nerf a raw stat of a builder it just seems like you're playing a shittier version of the builder. However, if you accompany it with a buff, a new mechanic or something - it feels more like a trade-off.

aka its more fun

[Burn]

You nerf the OP part of the builder/titan, and buff an underpowered or useless part to make the builder/titan more fun.

-Burn

[dlNO]

@sethy @burn
I 100% agree with your above segment Sethy. But the undeniable fact is that these are balance suggestions, balance is the prioritization here, not satisifying a single player's libido... If there is a 15/10 builder, he could and should be nerfed -5, by pure number adjustments. Or if he were to be nerfed a -6 in damage potential then he could be buffed +1 in mobility, giving him a new "Rush" ability or etc. It is true there are times when nerfs should be accompanied with a buff, but do not laminate that every nerf should be accompanied with a buff. Priority Alpha is to make every builder balanced, a 10/10, and then we can go toying around with their individualities. Giving them -2 in mobility to accompany a +2 in crowd control capabilities. There are some Dota heroes that have gone unchanged for years, except for slight number adjustments. If you really do seek creativity, I heavily advise that you focus it into a separate segment, into a new brand new builder. Not push it through the balance suggestions, where overall balance should be the priority.

[Sethy]

@sethy @burn
I 100% agree with your above segment Sethy. But the undeniable fact is that these are balance suggestions, balance is the prioritization here, not satisifying a single player's libido... If there is a 15/10 builder, he could and should be nerfed -5, by pure number adjustments. Or if he were to be nerfed a -6 in damage potential then he could be buffed +1 in mobility, giving him a new "Rush" ability or etc. It is true there are times when nerfs should be accompanied with a buff, but do not laminate that every nerf should be accompanied with a buff. Priority Alpha is to make every builder balanced, a 10/10, and then we can go toying around with their individualities. Giving them -2 in mobility to accompany a +2 in crowd control capabilities. There are some Dota heroes that have gone unchanged for years, except for slight number adjustments. If you really do seek creativity, I heavily advise that you focus it into a separate segment, into a new brand new builder. Not push it through the balance suggestions, where overall balance should be the priority.

Yea small number nerfs would be appropiate in this scenario like increasing lumber cost to upgrade by 10,20 etc. Only thing is, these things are extremely hard to track the importance/effectiveness of in a game like island defense. Firstly there's no mass amount of games to track long-term statistics since the sample pool is too small, and each game is so uniquely played out that it could be hard to track if the changes were effective.

[Burn]

Neutral buildings are OP atm.

Easy fix:

Make neutral buildings give only 10% EXP.

-Burn

[Hash]

I mentioned this in some other thread but I feel like its more appropriate here.

imo how top middle is OP for builders

1. In the main base, the lb fits 20 non nukable workers (unless like bubo/glac's nuke), on top of that, the solo tree at the top platform allows 3 supports to be able to lumber from it.
2. the lumber base to the right of that base is more op than the previous top middle lb.
3. hard to fit multiple minis in front of the base to siege.
4. there's a lot 1 wall choke points top middle
5. takes a very long time for titan especially with minis to reach from mound to the base.

solutions

1. make some of the deep water by the lb, to shallow water to reduce the amount of non nukable workers. Make it so that only one builder can lumber from that tree, like at beach and bay.
2. make one side of the entrance 2 walls wide, instead of both entrances being 1 wall wide. (left entrance would probably be easier to do)
3. make the cliff on the left side, further left, giving more space for minis during siege.
4. make like half of those choke points 2 walls wide .
5. make a pathway through the shop area, or a portal at the shop that only allows titan/minions/chickens to cross through could be cool.