Community Complaint Thread (also something about toxic towers? Or something?)

[lordmillt]

We will test if toxic is still strong or way too weak after release in pub games correct? that way its way easiler if we should buff or nerf other things like pool right? Since its for the pub games cuz no1 gets toxic or pool in ihs anyways.

[Neco]

This leads to another question. Is the Heal/Slow from Seashell/Whirlpool equally strong as the DPS toxic tower has?

Agreed. This is important.

I say yes.

Because the Heal/Slow delays the Titan from entering the base, thus compensating the lack of damage of the base for time taken to siege the base. It wouldn't be fair if Toxic was on the same DPS level as the other two since they have abilities while Toxic's ability is to have massive damage.

My biggest problem is that I don't like how the 135g towers seem several factors better than the 90g towers in terms of damage output. I think they need tuning is all.

Ultimate Towers have never formally been balanced in comparison to each other as far as I know.

[Burn]

And then compare them to how much damage Mega rapids do? The most OP towers are still utility towers like slows and armour. Toxic tower in tower form is next to worthless.

Agreed with Lynx-, this is just going to be another un-needed nerf made to another fun builder. How is stable version and beta version going to be any different in terms of balance if you never listen to the public and you just make decisions on a whim? You can't just look at stats of DPS, you have to factor in a variety of so many more factors. If you really still think you know balance best and that us "experienced" players are not trustworthy enoough to be biased when considering balance changes, then you can't say I tried. I also thought of something else. The "balance guy" doesn't need to be one person, it could be a "balance team". If you ignore any more of these questions, then I'll take it you're not interested try not to mention it again.

-Burn

[Neco]

Added poll to OP.

[Lynx]

Poll is useless. You need to have an argument for an answer not an arbitrary yes/no. Also, legends like leostrand can affect the poll with knowledge of a 3 year old.

I agree with Burn, we should have a balance team. It should consist of experienced players, I recommend 3 or 5 as then a vote between the balancers could be done and not result in a tie.

[aRt)Y]

I could limit voting permissions to IIHL Players only for this particular sub-forum. (If @Neco would like that.)

[Lynx]

You need to have an argument for an answer not an arbitrary yes/no

[BeeKauzh]

This leads to another question. Is the Heal/Slow from Seashell/Whirlpool equally strong as the DPS toxic tower has?

I say yes.

Because the Heal/Slow delays the Titan from entering the base, thus compensating the lack of damage of the base for time taken to siege the base. It wouldn't be fair if Toxic was on the same DPS level as the other two since they have abilities while Toxic's ability is to have massive damage.

And then compare them to how much damage Mega rapids do? The most OP towers are still utility towers like slows and armour. Toxic tower in tower form is next to worthless.

This.
I would argue toxic is the worst ulti tower in the game because it has no use other than damage.

@Neco Toxic can be seen as 3 mega towers in one since it has no special abilities. You are telling us this makes it overpowered because it deals slightly more damage than the others?

Let's say your base has 40 towers, add a toxic and it now has the dps of 43 towers. That's all it does. Add a tower with utilities instead (heal, slow, armor, stun, etc.) and your 40 towers + the utility tower with the dps of 2 towers (not 3) and your base is much stronger.

I thought until now this was common knowledge. One of the most obvious things in the game.

[BeeKauzh]

Undeserved? It's the best tower by 150% from the second best. How is that undeserved? Do the math yourself if you don't believe me...

A base consist of 40 to 60 towers and maybe 1 ulti tower. Not 1 ulti tower or 40 ulti tower.

I'll give more stats to show how toxic is terrible, I will compare it to my favorite ulti towers:

Mega Radon Tower DPS = 58.82
Toxic Tower DPS = 211.54 as Neco said in this thread, a 135g tower
Heavy Cannon Tower DPS = 0, a 90g tower
Deep Freeze DPS= 0, a 90g tower
Stasis Totem DPS = 0, a 90g tower


A base consisting of 40 Mega Radon Tower (2352.8 DPS) + 1 Toxic Tower = 2564.34 DPS
A base consisting of 40 Mega Radon Tower (2352.8 DPS) + 1 Heavy Cannon Tower/Deep Freeze/Stasis Totem = 2352.8 DPS

Assuming titan needs 4 seconds to kill a wall:
The base with Toxic tower will have dealt 10,257.36 damage when the wall dies;
The base with Heavy cannon will require titan to attack the same wall for 2 more seconds because of bonus armor and will have dealt 14,116.8 damage when the wall dies;
The base with Deep Freeze will require titan to attack the same wall for 1 more second because of the slow and will have dealt 11,764 damage when the wall dies;
The base with Stasis Totem will require titan to attack the same wall for 1 more second because of the stun and will have dealt 11,764 damage when the wall dies.

I fail to see how "It's the best tower by 150% from the second best. How is that undeserved?". Literally every tower I mentioned are much better without even attacking.

[lordmillt]

the totem for troll isnt 135g, its 90 @beekauzh

[BeeKauzh]

That's even better then. Three 90g towers are stronger than this 135g tower proving Neco wrong that the 135g are significantly stronger than the 90g ones.

[Burn]

Then, have a look at heavy cannon tower. It gives 15 bonus armour. If you do some research, armour stacks additively. Each point in armour gives around 6% EHP. 15 * 6 = 90% more HP on walls. That's insane, compared to a few mega towers.

-Burn

[Neco]

These are some good points @BeeKauzh.

[Burn]

I have a problem with loading 100c in single player, no other versions do this. Just me?

@Beekauzh is very very close, It's exactly 50% more EHP, and 47% more overall EHP. Imagine having a tower that either slows attack by 50%, or reduces damage by 50%. That's how strong armour is. Heavy Cannon tower should definitely be a 135G tower.

500HP 15A = 450 more EHP
500HP 30A = 900 more EHP

500HP 15A = 950 EHP
500HP 30A = 1400 EHP
500HP 45A = 1850 EHP

1400/950 = 147%, which means 47% more overall EHP.

Armour equation: ( 0.06 * A ) * HP = more EHP
Armour equation2: (0.06 * A + 1) * HP = Overall EHP
Armour equation3: (Final EHP / Initial EHP) -1 = More overall EHP

So basically, you get more overall EHP with lower armour walls, which makes heavy cannon tower even stronger, which is perfect for troll/Ogre/Radio, who usually has only 15A walls. Or Magnataur, who has 450HP 5A unbuilt walls, will make it 450HP 35A unbuilt walls (with mag fort.).

EDIT: A word.

-Burn

[BeeKauzh]

@Burn I am very very? I can load 100c just fine. I deleted my post trying to figure out your previous post, I think I get it now. I definitely did not think you calculated it like this.

@Neco I forgot something quite important:

40 Mega Radon Tower Total damage after wall dies : 9411.2
4 Mega Radon Tower total damage after wall dies : 941.12
Toxic tower Total damage after wall dies : 10,257.36 - 9411.2 = 846.16
Heavy cannon Total damage after wall dies : 14,116.8 - 9411.2 = 4,705.6 Reminder: This is if the Heavy cannon tower had an attack of 0

4,705.6/846.16=5.5
The heavy cannon "deals" 5.5 times more damage than the toxic. If this doesn't prove that the toxic tower does not need a nerf idk what would.
Of course it's the same thing with every other ulti towers. They "deal" more damage than the toxic from the bonus they give.