ENT Gaming

Spawned from this comment:

wastedlandering wrote:Are there plans to change toxic tower in item form? Shits ridiculous, I'm kind of surprised it had no mention in this version.

Don't nerf toxic tower. Toxic tower sucks against good titans because the DPS isn't great in tower form, and minions can just nuke units. The most OP gold towers atm is probably cannon (+15 armour to walls), tornado/frost/sludge for slow stacking.

-Burn

Toxic tower isn't the problem, it's the split effect of Radioactive stacking towers.

Agreed. Nerf Radio, not toxic.

Give 90G spineys or something shittier like box of toil (works with illusionS) to Radio instead. It's not a hard fix.

I know that the obvious fix is to not give Radio item effects on illusions, but that's reducing quality of life AKA restricting the things you can do in Island Defense, which is not something I recommend.

-Burn

Taking toxic away from rad won't fix the issue. People would just pass it him like they used to with Tauren spinys :D

Inc bombard tower is the new op offensive item.

Tbh, toxic split isn't even that much of an issue. It's just making the game less fun because it's not OP by any means.

-Burn

I really don't see how this is an issue. The gold you need for it to be OP is insane, the Titan definitely deserves to lose if he gives that much gold to builders. The one and only justifiable nerf would be not to make Toxic's stack, aka you can only have one in your inventory, but then again, the Titan deserves to lose if he feeds that much gold. I really don't see why to even bother discussing this utterly pointless issue which doesn't even happen in 0.1% of ID games.

Ask yourselves this; Have you ever lost a game due to a fed radioactive? and, Did you deserve to win that game?

Cost's 180g to get a toxic and 225g to get split with it.

You either need 90g pre GP and then wait till GP which isn't that much at all or 135g pre GP and then wait until GP which again isn't really that much.

So now we know the exact amounts, what's the benefit?

In exchange for your 225g with 1 toxic you can effectively gain 270g worth of gold towers for a short period of time over and over again.

1 toxic = 225g spent = 270g extra per split.
2 toxics = 360g spent = 540g extra per split.
3 toxics = 495g spent = 810g extra per split.

I fail to see the "non-issue" here.

A single toxic tower can decimate a lvl 4,5,6 minion in a pretty reasonable amount of time. Turning that 1 toxic tower into 3 destroys a lvl 4,5,6 minion in well under 10seconds which is pretty ridiculous. It can pretty easily kill a titan aswell considering it puts out enough damage as almost half of a full towered base that can move and slow and follow your units around at a safe distance. It's broken. Like, completely broken. Lol.

Edit: Personally haven't lost a game to a fed radioactive solo but it sure contributes to killing minions. Also see a lot of games ruined by it and once the Rad gets a single minion he just snowballs with the extra gold.

Lynx wrote:I really don't see how this is an issue. The gold you need for it to be OP is insane, the Titan definitely deserves to lose if he gives that much gold to builders.

+1. How often does a radioactive come around and actually hunt down minions/titan with a single toxic? Pretty certain the common demo/cow would've addressed the titan inexperience way before a rad can come around doing so.

i Think like how often do you rush toxic Tower as rad instead of getting a base, sure if bob titan but then he is prob already dead by trap, hunter or demo/cow like av1on said,

what would you go for? Fully gold base to secure ur win or toxics to risk lose ur game?

Assuming you actually got 180g+, you wouldn't be the only one. I'm sure one would use it to base out of the 9. (excluding you as the rad)

I can't believe I'm going to waste my time on your attempted troll. But, I'll explain this so even leostrand would agree (I've also made key words in upper case so you don't miss them).

ShadowZz wrote:Cost's 180g to get a toxic and 225g to get split with it.

Correct.

ShadowZz wrote:You either need 90g pre GP

90g pre-GP is insanely much gold to give builders. No arguing here. No good and respected Titan player has ever fed 40 or more gold to a single builder ever in a game (Unless player is tilting).

ShadowZz wrote:and then wait till GP which isn't that much at all or 135g pre GP and then wait until GP which again isn't really that much.

Where are you going to be waiting with your 90/135g in hope of reaching GP to get Toxic and Split? A shitty radioactive super/mega base? AND even after GP Toxic's effectiveness is VERY FAR away from good compared to rad gold towers.

ShadowZz wrote:So now we know the exact amounts, what's the benefit?

In exchange for your 225g with 1 toxic you can effectively gain 270g worth of gold towers for a short period of time over and over again.

1 toxic = 225g spent = 270g extra per split.
2 toxics = 360g spent = 540g extra per split.
3 toxics = 495g spent = 810g extra per split.

I fail to see the "non-issue" here.

Have you ever heard of illusions taking extra damage? Illusions are easily killed and now your "extra" value is lost. You better get glasses if you can't see the "non-issue".

ShadowZz wrote:A single toxic tower can decimate a lvl 4,5,6 minion in a pretty reasonable amount of time. Turning that 1 toxic tower into 3 destroys a lvl 4,5,6 minion in well under 10seconds which is pretty ridiculous. It can pretty easily kill a titan aswell considering it puts out enough damage as almost half of a full towered base that can move and slow and follow your units around at a safe distance. It's broken. Like, completely broken. Lol.

Any builder can "decimate" a lvl 4,5,6 minion with no problem if you feed them g200+. AT A SAFE DISTANCE? USE FOG OF WAR, USE WOTW, USE WW, USE WARD BLOCKS, ETHEREAL MIRROR, MICRO YOUR UNITS. It's broken if you've got more than 2 Toxic's, but that is 360G!??!?! At that point titan DESERVES to lose.

ShadowZz wrote:Edit: Personally haven't lost a game to a fed radioactive solo but it sure contributes to killing minions. Also see a lot of games ruined by it and once the Rad gets a single minion he just snowballs with the extra gold.

See? It doesn't even affect players with relative small skill.
Did the Titan deserve to win in that game? Surely, he did not.

Comprendo?? It's not broken because first time Titans get wrecked by experienced ID players. It just helps to reduce stalling. Let me draw a comparison to DotA. If Dendi (Pro dota player) was to face you in a 1v1 DotA game, You'd be completely rekt, why should ID be any different?

To be honest Shadowzz, I really can't be bothered to argue with you. Your arguments are invalid due to you not understanding how ID works and should work, by countering actions done by your opponent in order to outplay him, we should create multiple ways for players to maneuver the map, not hinder them to a single playing style. You're always arguing about useless stuff anyways, and even sometimes things that shouldn't be changed, and even sometimes you argue about stuff you have no authority to change. It is all hopeless in the end as Neco tends to favor your side in the end due to being biased which is sad for the future of Island Defense, it's truly sad watching your favorite game slowly die while you can not do anything to prevent it...

Lynx wrote:
To be honest Shadowzz, I really can't be bothered to argue with you. Your arguments are invalid due to you not understanding how ID works and should work, by countering actions done by your opponent in order to outplay him, we should create multiple ways for players to maneuver the map, not hinder them to a single playing style. You're always arguing about useless stuff anyways, and even sometimes things that shouldn't be changed, and even sometimes you argue about stuff you have no authority to change. It is all hopeless in the end as Neco tends to favor your side in the end due to being biased which is sad for the future of Island Defense, it's truly sad watching your favorite game slowly die while you can not do anything to prevent it...

You only say my arguments are invalid because you have no formal education in game balance. A simple way to look at this would be to look at all gold towers. All cost the same amount and follow the same restrictions to get them. Thus all should hole the same "power".

For example:

Advantages of heavy cannon tower: Average damage, average attack speed, average range, single +15 armor aura within a radius or on a unit when as an item. It's average overall and has 1 major buff.

So it's one major benefit is it's armor aura.

Advantages of toxic tower: Above average damage, above average attack speed, average range, above average slow aura, abusable given separate requirements (rad split). It's above average in all areas and it's buff is well above average given that "slow" is the best buff when ganking.

Ignoring the rad split for gold towers you would still need to either A) reduce damage slightly B) reduce range as an item slightly C) reduce it's slow poison affect for it to even come in the "remotely on par" level with other gold towers.

Neco doesn't favor me. Do you not think it's ironic that people who actually have and study IT degrees or Software Engineering degrees or Game Design degrees or Computer Science degrees seem to have 0 issue understanding the logic behind this and all agree on most things that you don't?

ID has been dying for the past 5 years. So far all the changes have started to increase the amount of people playing and more changes will continue to do this. Unfortunately ID is not what it used to be. That's a fact. But if you want to play ID before it started dying then go check out all the earlier versions from Yacapo and Dildamesh (which btw don't have wallwalking in them either) and then come back and you'll understand why changing things is a good thing.

I'm not trying to argue with you but you need to understand that change is a good thing. If the game ddoesn't change it will continue to wither away. New people don't come to ID because it's complicated, it's old, it's unbalanced and it doesn't have it's own platform (game).

Sometimes balancing does remove fun things but it gives long term players the ability to adjust and find new fun strats. Removing something that is unbalanced or adjusting it doesn't hurt the game. It helps. Tauren spineys for example.



Side-note: You can do things about "ID dying" in your opinion. If you want someone to take any of your suggestions or arguments seriously then stop doing it like this - "Your changing something that's been in ID forever", "Who cares if it's completley broken, it only happens in %1 of games", "If someone gets that much gold then who cares if it's balanced, they deserve to lose anyway". It doesn't help. It isn't an argument. It isn't even a discussion. It's just a misconceived nostalgia of what "ID used to be" even though the ID you refer to is also a misconceived idea of what "ID used to be". It's a game that has changed in literally every way. The only thing that even looks similar are the models at this point. It's a mute argument.

You could give great arguments if you thought of everything from the perspective of the majority. 90% of the people who play ID are average. Not pros. Not people who need to learn every strat under the sun to deal with abusive things like Tauren spineys or rad toxic split. Thing of the majority and then you will see why some nostalgic things are super unbalanced.