Bitching about experience... (again)

[Lynx]

Alright, I'm sorry for having to bring up this issue again.

There is very clearly a major experience difference from 3.0.9d that is truly imbalanced. This obviously shouldn't be intended as Neco has repeated himself that the only thing with a large impact change was the shared experience. I figured that the reason to why Titans leveled easy was due to this change, until I recently played this game vs Fossurious titan.

Experience system.w3g

(146.67 KiB) Downloaded 49 times

https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=7031257

In this game Fossurious managed to gain a staggering level 9 at the 10 minute mark. Without any minions. Now, I know from that alone that the experience system has had an major changed from 3.0.9d, because I have never seen a titan managed to acquire level 9 in 3.0.9d at the 10 minute mark. You'd barely hit level 7 if you got extremely lucky at the 10 minute mark. Others can probably vouch for this statement too. There has to have been a change in leveling or an unnoticed bug perhaps.

Perhaps units share experience with themselves or something when a structure dies and they receive double experience, or maybe the experience required per level is different. There is definitely something major that has changed and now causes big imbalance, known or unknown.

[Haunt]

To be honest, I kinda agree.

Titans seem to level up easier in 4.0.0 than in 3.0.9d. Or maybe people are just better idk...

[1337hamburger]

Wasn't there just a post yesterday saying that titan is too hard to play/win? That being said, it does seem like the titan levels faster in current than 309d.

[FollowingPath]

It might have something to do with the delay on lowering the exp rate. It takes a few seconds for the rate to actually lower, which means a good nuke will net you the full exp rate from all the workers hit. In that particular game there was a leaver, so the rate was already increased above 100%. Combine that with what I said and you get the idea of how much exp a good nuke can get you.
Of course if that was the case in 3.0.9d as well, then disregard this post.

[Lynx]

Wasn't there just a post yesterday saying that titan is too hard to play/win?

I'd say the opposite.

[Burn]

Agreed, way easier to win in in-houses with 4.x.x, especially with the feeding play-style.

I usually get around lvl 8 or 9 in 4.x.x by 20 minutes, whereas I'd be lucky to be lvl 8 at GP in 309d.

I think it's mainly to do with upgraded walls and shelters, though. Upgraded walls and shelters feed a FUCKLOAD. That is, assuming we trust Neco's EXP number system, which unfortunately I don't, I still think 4.x.x EXP system is completely bonkers.

-Burn

[Lynx]

I think there is more to it than just stuff feeding more. @Neco input please, or have you given up? Haven't heard from you lately.

[ShadowZz]

Well we could start by not constantly comparing 4.0.0 to 3.0.9d as they are practically completely different games but I digress...

The EXP system is the same and in the game you mention with Fossurious having only his main titan then it is indeed identical to 3.0.9d. We could post a chart or a diagram showing you this (already done that). You could test it yourself in a private game and it will give you the exact same values...

As for the "delay" someone mentioned. If you nuke a group of workers with an aoe nuke then they all feed at the current rate of feed. This is the same for 3.0.9d and always has been...

As for the comment about it being down to walls feeding more or what not, the feed rate would still decay at the same rate so overall feed would receive the same reductions via feed rate.

Seriously, just jump into a private game and on 3.0.9d and then one on 4.0.0. You can test it yourself. These topics open up every other week and you get the same pictures and the same replies. Just go look yourself zzz...

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png

Edit: I just watched the replay. He walks bot left at the start of the game and gets 2 factories, 6 fruits, like 12 workers in a nuke (no feed reduction) and an rc (just ticks level 4). Then he walks top left and gets another 8-12 workers in a nuke (no feed reduction) like 20 towers and an entire base of feed(level 6 almost 7 now). Walks bottom middle and kills a lb wall then walks in and nukes another 8-10 workers (no feed reduction) and kills basically 20 workers and rc etc then goes mid and kills undetoed rc's then hits lvl 9 poking a few walls. He had so much worker feed that game it's unreal. I'm not at all surprised hes level 9. People need to learn to deto. The reason he leveled up so quickly is because he hit different people so everyone who he hit had full feed rate when he got there.

[BeeKauzh]

To be honest, I kinda agree.

Titans seem to level up easier in 4.0.0 than in 3.0.9d. Or maybe people are just better idk...

This
Or maybe not getting minions in the first 3 minutes means more builders survive to feed another day.

IIRC Neco told me before or during alpha about a year and a half ago he made all titans ult obtainable at level 12 and changed xp rate and attack damage accordingly.

[Neco]

IIRC Neco told me before or during alpha about a year and a half ago he made all titans ult obtainable at level 12 and changed xp rate and attack damage accordingly.

This is incorrect.

[BeeKauzh]

@Neco Someone named Neco told me this, that I am 2000% sure. Maybe it was someone else stealing your name but I doubt it.

[Neco]

Then I guess we can't trust your word for anything, as all ultimates were made obtainable at level 12 in version 0101. It seems you're joining the Lynx and Burn bandwagon of trying to argue points while having no proof.

I'm honestly surprised I'm even replying to this thread. I'm just going to ignore posts like this from now on...

Test it yourself, don't come whining to me with "experience" or half-truths.

[wastedlandering]

I do not see how these posts can keep getting made. EXP gain changes isn't some mystical philosophical area of the game to debate about. Fire up WC3. Test exp gain in 309. Test it in 4.0. If you find something drastically different, then tell us. These topics are literally just lazy, nostalgic bitch fests where people refuse to believe any point of view that doesn't coincide with "how they remember things".

Neco has entertained these discussions multiple times, and even come back with hard numbers to back up his claims. Lynx and Burn's counter argument is literally "that's just not how i remember it". Sorry, that's a shitty argument. Never trust something like your memory. I like Lynx and Burn, and do respect their opinions, but how the fuck can you be so hard headed on something that is so blatantly easy to prove/disprove?

You think something is shitty with the exp system? Give a suggestion. We'd love to hear it and talk about it. Don't come out blaming Neco with arguments which you are, quite literally, pulling out of your ass. He's said its the same system, if you don't believe him, fucking test it! Make him eat his own words. I actually came to this thread expecting someone to have new information/data, and was severely disappointed. I'm tired of reading about this stupid shit. Get your arguments together and come to us with something concrete if you want people to take you seriously.

[Burn]

Because there are evidently some differences in the EXP system.

First of all, leavers increase feed rate.
Second of all, upgraded walls feed a fucktonne.

These are facts. I'm not on some bandwagon, but I think these are the main reasons behind why people feed so much.

Third of all, not confirmed, but there are some shady shit behind even more EXP shit that I'm sure Neco is not telling us, not because he doesn't want to, but because he doesn't know. Unfortunately, I do not trust Neco's word any more. There are a lot more reasons why I don't believe in Neco as our editor any more, but I don't want to delve into that because I don't want this to turn into a flame fest, or getting my post deleted. I really wanted to and I supported him 100% for a while, but that while has unfortunately come to an end.

-Burn

[Lynx]

I thought level 9 at 10 minutes would be more than enough proof to show everyone that there is definitely something wrong (afaik everyone in the thread who has played 3.0.9d extensively has agreed). I agree my proof isn't the best, it's because I'm lazy, not because I'm nostalgic or a bandwagoner. But Neco's proof isn't the best either, how do we know he isn't just making that graph up? I could also create a fake graph right now. But still, I am 100% certain that there is something different in leveling.

So how do we proceed? By obtaining the following information from both versions.

Amount of experience needed per each different Titan level. (Maybe even check if there is a difference in this between the Titans)
Amount of experience each unit and structure is worth.
Starting experience feedage percentage per individual builder. (I think builders started at 90% and supports at like 110% in 3.0.9d)
Experience reduction curve (Sorry Neco, I just don't believe yours is true. Maybe if you tell me your method I'll change my mind)

From gathering these we will most likely find the problem. Maybe I'm completely wrong, and wouldn't that be juicy? It might just be a meta change as walls have been easier to kill and thus the Titan can accomplish more. But I'd be very surprised if that small change would be so significant.

Anyways, it's useless to argue here any further. We should do either of these options;
1) The lazy route: Nerf leveling, because as it stands right now it's way to imbalanced.
2) The hard route: Find the information above and correct the issue from that information.


Disclaimer: No, I'm not nostalgic for 3.0.9d. I genuinely want to enjoy 4.0.0, but it's hard to enjoy something imbalanced. That's why I'm ranting about balance all the time.