Terrain bugs

[Remixer]

I'm really confused to what exactly you want accomplished? Do you want ramps removed to prevent ij? Even if done, ij can be done on flat terrain too, so it's kind of pointless to reduce/remove ramps.

No, I don't want item jumping to be removed and I don't want ramps to be removed. I want the terrain around certain ramps to be fixed, so they physically work as they should work, according to their visual appearance. I posted 3 pictures showing that this is not the case in every ramp on the map. So basically my complaint is same as if there was a normal dirt ground tile on the map, with nothing on it, but it would be unwalkable.

hi remixer why not make ur own version of id? it seems like you want to redo this whole map, neco probably aint gonna do it anyway.

Re-recreating the entire map would be way too time consuming and such a waste of time, also my knowledge on scripting isn't strong enough to understand every single part of it, though with pre-created systems one could get pretty far. Things I have mentioned so far that should be fixed are balance of the map (pretty important, most people agreed), some of the Titans, especially Voltron (even Neco agreed something should be done on Voltron), some terrain changes (again, Neco liked some of them, and also part of the balance) and now this - which no one seems to understand or don't like. I con't see how that is changing the entire map, especially when I am not alone with it.

Yes, actually it does. It's called map experience, aka, learning the map.

In CS:GO all the new players learn Dust2 and have good map experience with it. Throw them in another map like inferno, and they won't be able to know the map inside out like dust2. You can see their KDA vastly suffer because they don't know where to walk and aim.

It's the same in ID, where you have to know the choke points and how to wall them, and to know to item jump every single tower base except beach base, which has no ramp.

Well you probably should have read the thread, at least my posts. I understand what you mean with that CS:GO reference, but that's not what I am talking however. I am talking about could be shown in a few examples:
It's same as if in Dust 2, a wall that appeared to be stone would physically be a thin wall of wood, allowing for penetration to the other side (that sounded weird). In this case there are two options that Valve would do: A) Change the appearance of the wall into thin wall of wood, or B) Edit the physical properties of the wall to match the visuals.

It's same as you could walk on invisible platforms or inside a wall (we've experience with Hogwarts on Mirage). In this case Valve has two options again: A) Change the appearance of the areas so that it looks you could walk there naturally, or B) Edit the physical properties of those places so that they really match their visuals.


I know it's good to know how to item jump into every single base, I am not saying it's not. Heck, I am not even saying that it should be prevented or removed from the map (would require an enormous work-around). Up to this point I assume that every one knows how Warcraft 3 works with Cliff Levels and their physics, in case some one does not, you cannot change cliff level if you run out of space - no matter what height the cliff is at (note that height =/= cliff level). Usually this is very clear and matches with visuals, but ramps are problematic.

Spoiler!

Nothing prevents us from creating a 2x2 cliff, ramps around it and smoothen it to the exact same level than it would be, without the entire cliff and ramps. What would happen in game? We could not see that 2x2 spot before we walk up those non-existent ramps and we could item jump from that 2x2 spot to a nearby base that's on the same cliff level, even though the height is nothing alike.

[Burn]

Creating a 2x2 cliff, ramps around it and smoothen it to the exact same level than it would be, without the entire cliff and ramps.

Elaborate this? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. I think you don't understand how IJ mechanics work.

1) There is no fix to ij bases, unless you remove ramps (see beach base)
2) IJ is when you are on the same level plain as the place you are trying to jump to, placing items under you, then either using a skill, attack command to jump there.
3) Moving, stop command or picking up items can jump you across 1x1 gaps like badly walled mid walling.

It's basically like jump bases, except with 1.5 x 1.5 units (titan), and items instead of buildings. Trying to nerf item jumping is trying to nerf jump bases, it's not very easy to do.

Although builders can item jump too, it isn't often used.

Off topic:

Well you probably should have read the thread, at least my posts.

https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91645

-Burn

[Remixer]

Creating a 2x2 cliff, ramps around it and smoothen it to the exact same level than it would be, without the entire cliff and ramps.

Elaborate this? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. I think you don't understand how IJ mechanics work.

1) There is no fix to ij bases, unless you remove ramps (see beach base)
2) IJ is when you are on the same level plain as the place you are trying to jump to, placing items under you, then either using a skill, attack command to jump there.
3) Moving, stop command or picking up items can jump you across 1x1 gaps like badly walled mid walling.

It's basically like jump bases, except with 1.5 x 1.5 units (titan), and items instead of buildings. Trying to nerf item jumping is trying to nerf jump bases, it's not very easy to do.

Although builders can item jump too, it isn't often used.

Off topic:

Well you probably should have read the thread, at least my posts.

https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=91645

-Burn

I am gonna make an image in the editor about the first thing, hard to explain - basically cliff levels can exist without visually being there, and thus allowing long-distance jumps that don't seem possible.

1) There is ways to fix it, but this would, like I said, require an enormous work-around, for example adding and removing the unit collision which would be very very complicated system constantly checking conditions. Another option would be to set titan back to point A if he appears too far away from it, with certain conditions set of course, then again like I said, I am not against IJ as a mechanic.

2) IJ works exactly same as other jumping, since it uses Warcraft III physics - running out of space makes the unit teleport to a spot where there is enough space for him, or he jams inside an already occupied spot (this is known as "IJ proofing" or what happens when Warcraft III forces the Magmide to spawn inside a base (same thing), different situation. Yes, I know that and that is the reason people should easily be able to distinguish the cliff levels from each other.

3) Yes... this is mostly part of any kind of jumping, but not necessarily. Like I said, when unit runs out of space it teleports, if possible. Happens in every situation where you add something, requiring more space into a place where there is not enough space:
Including but not limited to:

Spoiler!

a) Spawning units (Syph elementals) - WC3 tries to spawn them on the same cliff level
b) Spawning items (Turtle scales, bundles of lumber) - WC3 tries to spawn them on the same cliff level
c) Creating units (Titan Hunter) - WC3 tries to spawn them on the same cliff level...
d) Summoning a ward
e) Polymorphing units from air to ground or water to ground
f) Polymorphing units to require more/less space
g) Transforming units to change their pathing
h) Placing a structure, and running out of space for the builder
i) Special situations, for example Wisp harvesting removes the unit's pathing completely.
j) Removing/adding locust/ghost also removes/adds pathing
k) Placing down items
l) Using wind walk, this is known ability to remove unit collision, but still block buildings
m) Ghost (can remove even the structure pathing)

And I guess there are some more situations where that same thing happens but basically in each situation it is the same - an object runs out of space and thus teleports to a location where space is available (up to a certain maximum distance, I don't know how long it is, but appears to be somewhere around 1000).

[Remixer]

Creating a 2x2 cliff, ramps around it and smoothen it to the exact same level than it would be, without the entire cliff and ramps.

Elaborate this? I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. I think you don't understand how IJ mechanics work.

In a nut shell what I meant: height has nothing to do with cliff levels, and ramps on the map should be fixed to match their physics.

EDIT: It's the same hill top on both pictures, with exact same functionality. The latter just doesn't look like a hill at all.

Spoiler!

[Burn]

So you're saying you can create a fog of war without using item jumping levels that also doesn't change how the map looks at all? You need to provide descriptions under each image you provide. It took me a while to understand what you're trying to say.

Spoiler!

If that is not visually misleading then I do not know what is.

I just saw this post. This is how WC3 always has been like, and we know, it's shit. But it's what we got. The bottom part of every single ramp is on the same level as the lower level and only the top 2x2 of the ramp is a part of the upper level. It's just how Island Defense is and isn't hard to learn/understand once you start wall walking. Learn to wall at the bottom of ramps or on the top of ramps and you're golden. Or proof it off with a shelter or extra wall at the back (i don't like this, however, because it's easier to ward block if you do this).

Also, please give an example of how you'd fix a "misleading" ramp.

For the record, I am against item jumping in general. I personally rarely item jump, let alone item jump into tower bases.

Off topic:
Thanks for the lecture on jumping, but it wasn't necessary. I was just talking about IJ in a nutshell. There are other ways to jump including returning resources, burrowing, multiple units WW'ing on the same location etc. but I won't get into that.

-Burn

[Remixer]

So you're saying you can create a fog of war without using item jumping levels that also doesn't change how the map looks at all? You need to provide descriptions under each image you provide. It took me a while to understand what you're trying to say.

Spoiler!

If that is not visually misleading then I do not know what is.

I just saw this post. This is how WC3 always has been like, and we know, it's shit. But it's what we got. The bottom part of every single ramp is on the same level as the lower level and only the top 2x2 of the ramp is a part of the upper level. It's just how Island Defense is and isn't hard to learn/understand once you start wall walking. Learn to wall at the bottom of ramps or on the top of ramps and you're golden. Or proof it off with a shelter or extra wall at the back (i don't like this, however, because it's easier to ward block if you do this).

Also, please give an example of how you'd fix a "misleading" ramp.

For the record, I am against item jumping in general. I personally rarely item jump, let alone item jump into tower bases.

Off topic:
Thanks for the lecture on jumping, but it wasn't necessary. I was just talking about IJ in a nutshell. There are other ways to jump including returning resources, burrowing, multiple units WW'ing on the same location etc. but I won't get into that.

-Burn

I know it's how Warcraft 3 is but it does not mean that we must hunt for bugged ramps.

How would I fix it? Not terrain with flaws, but try to terrain properly, without making bugs. As long as the ground is not bugged the height differences does not matter, since people can trust how the terrain performs. And if it's bugged it cannot have any height editing since then it's very misleading.

Example of an alternative way to create the bottom-left ramp of the middle. Pretty big changes since the eastern middle ramp gets in the way and restrict further editing there. No more bugged ramps with black voids. The upper ramp is completely editable, meaning you could make it smaller or bigger.

Pathing map:

Spoiler!

Example of an alternative way to create the top-left ramp of the middle. Nothing very major apart from the slight change of the buildable line, but that can be put back to the original as it's only height.

Pathing map:

Spoiler!

EDIT:

Attached the map file that has terrain edited around middle and mid-bottom.

[Burn]

The problem with those two pictures is that it is either:

1) Missing fog of war
2) Missing an indicator of where fog of war should be

-Burn

[Remixer]

The problem with those two pictures is that it is either:

1) Missing fog of war
2) Missing an indicator of where fog of war should be

-Burn

That's why i attached the map file so people could see it in game.

[Burn]

I am not home at the moment to counter your argument. Would you like to elaborate?

-Burn

[Remixer]

I am not home at the moment to counter your argument. Would you like to elaborate?

-Burn

Top-Left Middle Ramp


Top-Right Middle Ramp


Bottom-Right Middle Ramp


Can't really show it very well since I don't have the playable version - only terrain and showing how it would actually look with correct range of sight etc. is hard. Bottom-Left ramp remains pretty much unchanged exluding a few trees etc.

Here's an overview with some more terrain for scale (also grid included with pathing mapping):

[Burn]

If it is however you say it is, I approve of the IJ nerf, but only because I was never a fan of ij or ankh jumping.

-Burn

[Remixer]

If it is however you say it is, I approve of the IJ nerf, but only because I was never a fan of ij or ankh jumping.

-Burn

It's not IJ nerf - it's just terrain bug fix. Nothing else. Just fixed bugged terrain to look like it should.

[1337hamburger]

This would fix any item jumping from cliff mechanics. . . but I'm sure that most pubs would still wall in a way that is too spaced out so you can still ij them. And it seemed like you were wanting to lessen the skill gap for players by fixing the terrain, but imo this will increase it, by forcing more experienced players to 3-4 item jump instead of just using 1 item.
Again sorry if I missed something, this is getting pretty hard to follow.

[Remixer]

This would fix any item jumping from cliff mechanics. . . but I'm sure that most pubs would still wall in a way that is too spaced out so you can still ij them. And it seemed like you were wanting to lessen the skill gap for players by fixing the terrain, but imo this will increase it, by forcing more experienced players to 3-4 item jump instead of just using 1 item.
Again sorry if I missed something, this is getting pretty hard to follow.

It obviously is. People don't seem to understand that terrain that has a black hole in it is bugged. My only intention was to fix those black holes, since they are bugs, which make the terrain go nuts. What I mean by terrain going nuts is that it does not look normal - bugged terrain often has huge height variations and sharp ramps that should be avoided not only because they look ugly, but because the only fix to make bugged terrain look pretty is to use height tool - and sadly, height tool does not change the cliff height, meaning that at certain spots the terrain becomes misleading, not showing what it actually is.

For me, as a mapper, this is very problematic since I instantly spot if terrain is bugged, and if it's bugged I have no idea where the ramp starts or ends, since I know that the game does not know what is going on - the terrain is bugged, it should not be - so the game does not know what it is supposed to be creating.

My edits do not make item jump more difficult, they just point out to both, builders and titans, where the ramp starts and ends, and thus makes item jumps for those who don't know the map with their eyes closed easier - to avoid and to perform. This does not directly affect item jumping, but all movement in general - terrain that previously looked like A but performed like B, now looks like A and performs like A. That is my only intention. To make terrain perform how it looks and make terrain look how it performs.

Let me try to show what I exactly mean:

In the following Images:
GREEN LINES = RAMP TOPS (The points where the cliff level changes)
BLUE LINES = RAMP EDGES (The ramp sides, where the ramp changes back to cliff)

This my my revamped middle top-left ramp. Each blue line is straight, and clearly marks the edge of the ramp, smoothly changing to cliff. The green line clearly follows the highest point of the ramp and ends at the blue lines, the ramp edges.


This is the old, bugged middle top-left ramp. The bottom blue line is fine, it's not bugged and the green line follows the highest point of the ramp - until it meets the other edge. The northern ramp edge is bugged - the game nor the editor has no idea where the ramp edge is and thus the green line has no idea where it should go. I drew the lines according to my experience of the editor - the ramp edge tries to be diagonal, but it's supposed to be horizontal and thus the blue line goes diagonally and the green line gets lost, and appears on the edge, making absolutely no sense.


Now... now matter how the terrain looks in game - bugged or not bugged - it performs along the lines I drew in the images. My intention is to make the terrain clearly show where those blue and green lines are - that is done, by making not-bugged terrain.

[Lynx]

I don't mind if it's a bit clearer, mid terrain is so old anyways so might as well change it.