2.36 Changelog (old discontinued test version)

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Noctosphere
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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Noctosphere » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:24 pm

alteregok wrote:I think incoming from building camps is changing fundamentals of civwars. civwars is not a castle fight. incoming from marketting skill and lane control should be separated from incoming from building units itself.

Actually, we're talking about a wonder, not about changing civ wars income system.
take the example of 9 munition plant, it would give 216 income, for a total of 516. That's far from being enough at this stade of the game. so the player who owns this wonder still has to get bank/stock and market

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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby XGDeath3 » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:09 pm

@Noctosphere That wonder IS changing the income system. There is no risk to it like there is with other income wonders. Currently, income is tied directly to lane dominance EXCEPT in the case of bank and stock exchange. This proposed wonder acts in the same vein as a bank or stock exchange except that it does not require you to hold money to get the benefit. Additionally, it generates more income than the bank does.

So, what exactly is stopping a mid laner from making this wonder, by the way? People love the income wonders. Zipang is not exactly neglected as is. How much does a 3 lane control Zipang generate? If the idea is that a mid lane will not want this wonder because they won't generate enough from it, I think that is a flawed mindset. As a some what antiquated mid player, I like to have multiple buildings in bottom and in top that I swap between with deactivating and reactivating. These buildings are generally a higher tier than the players who are the main builders in that lane, so those spawns push the wave. And they are expensive. I also like to maintain mid lane control for as much as I can. It might not be 9-15 spawn camps, but even getting upwards of 4 or 5 higher tier than side lanes is a lot of gold. A lot of gold that a mid lane would love to recoup with no real downside. If this becomes an industrial wonder, my build order would be uni, uni, steam engine, stock, transcontinental railroad, stock market, this new wonder {depending on tech requirement}. My point is, as a mid lane, I would desire this wonder greatly if it did not appear that the game was ending.

At the point in the game where this wonder becomes active, a mid laner will receive more than enough benefit from it to justify building it. It will promote snowballing as someone who is ahead and makes it will get further ahead with very little risk to themselves. They do not need to tie up gold for it to work. They just have to push lanes. Which gives them more gold. Which incidentally, gives them more gold. (Not a typo, just a compounding effect.)

I think it is a nice idea, but I do not think it would serve the proposed purpose.


As an aside: It is a somewhat alien idea to me that a side laner should be drastically over 650 income by industrial. I blame my old school habits, I guess.
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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Noctosphere » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:29 pm

BTW, while you're here xg, Civil told me I had to ask you that
can i be observer on tourny match so i can stream them on switch?

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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Quetra » Sun Dec 11, 2016 7:22 pm

it's irony to explain and repeat everything again and again but


The real irony is that you've said this and yet I'm the one who will have to quote my previous responses to you here, since your concerns have already been answered.

a.) Claiming jokes that playing Castle Fight is a problem are just not true when there are ez pz solutions, for example restarting Warcraft 3.


Ok, and what do you want me to do? I'm not the maker of Castle Fight and I do not have the power to make people restart their wc3.

b.) I use Gproxy Varlock for a long time now without any problem when playing another map but Civ Wars, when suddenly someone quits for whatever reason and a desync happens, must be a totally random event.


Desyncs after 30 seconds are related to Gproxy not the map. Desyncs at the start of the game are related to playing other maps before without restarting wc3 (for example Castle FIght ES.) Desyncs after a player leaves are related to the map.


As you can see I differentiated between desyncs occuring after 30 seconds caused by Gproxy and desyncs occuring after leaving which are related to the map. I have iterated several times on this forum that I am aware that players leaving causes desyncs and that this is a map problem.

A. The player was using Gproxy Dll not Gproxy Varlock which you use without problem.
B. The player stopped using it and also stopped desyncing. I do not understand why you choose to ignore the content of the poster entirely.


3.) What the 2.36 will be once it's done and uploaded on the public bot, makes me not want to play new versions anymore, together with how the bans und unbans are starting to get handled.


Just because you got banned there is suddenly a problem with how they handle it? All the admins do is apply the rules, which everyone should have read.

Reaction to new versions has been mostly positive so far, so thankfully you are in the minority.

c.) Since you, Civiliznations, are the one and only at the moment making the map, it is your task actually to read through some thousand lines of code and try everything possible to fix that damn bug. There is a worldwide tournament running. And the way you style yourself here as an innocent person while swinging the ban hammer and insulting just for fun at your clan channels proves to me the fact that you moved to your own galaxy.


This is your warning that if there is any more personal attacks on me or any other player in your posts I will simply remove them.





That wonder IS changing the income system. There is no risk to it like there is with other income wonders. Currently, income is tied directly to lane dominance EXCEPT in the case of bank and stock exchange.


Not entirely true considering Obelisk and Interstate provide basic incomes but broadly speaking yes.

So, what exactly is stopping a mid laner from making this wonder, by the way? People love the income wonders. Zipang is not exactly neglected as is. How much does a 3 lane control Zipang generate? If the idea is that a mid lane will not want this wonder because they won't generate enough from it, I think that is a flawed mindset. As a some what antiquated mid player, I like to have multiple buildings in bottom and in top that I swap between with deactivating and reactivating. These buildings are generally a higher tier than the players who are the main builders in that lane, so those spawns push the wave. And they are expensive. I also like to maintain mid lane control for as much as I can. It might not be 9-15 spawn camps, but even getting upwards of 4 or 5 higher tier than side lanes is a lot of gold. A lot of gold that a mid lane would love to recoup with no real downside. If this becomes an industrial wonder, my build order would be uni, uni, steam engine, stock, transcontinental railroad, stock market, this new wonder {depending on tech requirement}. My point is, as a mid lane, I would desire this wonder greatly if it did not appear that the game was ending.


Well firstly we can do some calculations to figure out how much mid lane is likely to have invested at the stage of the game the wonder would most likely be employed (mid-late industrial.) Assuming 2x leader is 5000 gold, +2100 for Artillery Yard, +2400 for Submarine is 9,500. Of course mid could have invested more but if that is the case they probably have less gold to be spending on income wonders. 1% of all that is 95 gold, which is essentially on par with Bank income, which is worth 1500 (cost of bank + holding gold.) Considering the Wonder would be priced at 2000+, it's somewhat weak when compared to Stock. Seems to me that sidelanes would definetly benefit more from the wonder.

There are several modifications that could be done to the idea, though. One idea is that it's effect would not stack with Stock Exchange so you cannot get too many basic income buildings. Another idea is that the wonder could easily be coupled with lane control similar to zipang, but with the payout also variable on how many spawns they have to make it more attractive to sides. I would like to promote marketing that is effective for sides in the Industrial era, because at that point in the game the expense of the units means that sidelanes can often not contribute as much to the lategame.

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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Noctosphere » Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:46 am

Maybe an idea for you to balance it a bit more.
If you really want to make it dependant of lane control, then do this :
The owner of the wonder must control his own lane in order to get the 1%
For example, if the owner is top, he must control Zipand Delta to get the 1%
If he'S bottom, he must control Crossing Accces.
The owner doesnt need to control the farest control point, just the middle one.
So what do you think?

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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Noctosphere » Fri Dec 16, 2016 11:01 pm

a new unit you should add is a new upgrade for man-o-war
it would be able to attack air, would be less tankish than dreadnought
would land humvee, and maybe have the same requirement as dread,
Two reason for why :
first, in trireme branch, you dont have any unit attacking air until modern.
two, carrack > man-o-war > dreadnought, that makes 2 upgrade in a row
that you only have one choice of upgrade, thats bad in my opinion to not have choice

So, what do you think?

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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Noctosphere » Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:34 pm

Also, btw, for the whole trireme branch, as top, you only have one choice, since the leader is usually made by mid.
So I guess we should have more choice in this branch,
so far it will be a straigth lane of upgrade, and you can't choose your own way of playing
trireme > quinquireme > ram ship > carrack > man-o-war > Dreadnought > THEN' AND ONLY THEN, you have two choice. and it's at modern. I think we should remake the trireme branch since it'S too linear.
Maybe add one or two ship in the branch. For example, Ram ship could be another upgrade for the trireme, but a late upgrade. that you get much later than quinquireme. what do you think?
also, you could also use my idea of new upgrade for man-o-war that attack air and focus on fast & low damage like humvee and would land one.

What do you tthink?

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Re: 2.36 Changelog

Postby Quetra » Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:08 pm

Also, btw, for the whole trireme branch, as top, you only have one choice, since the leader is usually made by mid.
So I guess we should have more choice in this branch,
so far it will be a straigth lane of upgrade, and you can't choose your own way of playing
trireme > quinquireme > ram ship > carrack > man-o-war > Dreadnought > THEN' AND ONLY THEN, you have two choice. and it's at modern. I think we should remake the trireme branch since it'S too linear.
Maybe add one or two ship in the branch. For example, Ram ship could be another upgrade for the trireme, but a late upgrade. that you get much later than quinquireme. what do you think?
also, you could also use my idea of new upgrade for man-o-war that attack air and focus on fast & low damage like humvee and would land one.

What do you tthink?


It is pretty much the case that top lane has much less choice than land units, especially in the early to mid game. To some extent I like the simplicity of the lane because it's easier for new players to learn top than any other lane in my opinion. However I do think that there should be more units added to top to increase the complexity somewhat, as the lane becomes somewhat stale to play for players once they have learned how the lane works. There is really very few strategies to be employed and they generally don't differ very much.

I've tried to increase the complexity with the Ram Ship and Dromon buffs in 2.36. However while I would like to do more to change the lane, I am mindful that many players don't want the game to change too much too fast, so I am changing in stages. (Also easier to balance this way as it's easier to see the individual impact of each change.) If there are good ideas for new ships sufficiently different/adding different playstyles on each tier then I will consider adding them for future releases.

Now as to your individual ideas, there isn't really a good way that I can see to differentiate the Ram Ship enough from the Quinquireme were it on the same tier. It wouldn't be much of a choice if it were just a later tech stronger Quinquireme, as in this case it should just be an upgrade. As for the Man-o-War upgrade, I feel like it would be hard to make the ship useful given the strength of Aegis Cruisers as DPS. If it requires Combustion I can see it being useful for a few minutes before getting the Aegis Tech, but then you are stuck with the unit when you'd probably rather have the Dreadnought for the soak. It could be reasonable if it would then upgrade into the Aegis but then both branches would end up in the same place. I'm also not convinced though that it fits the theme of the Trireme branch given that they are basically all large and bulky ships with Fortified armour and high hp/low attack speed for the Carrack and above.

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Re: 2.36 Changelog (future version)

Postby Quetra » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:50 am

This version of the map has been abandoned in favour of a new one built from scratch. Moving this topic to the general discussion.


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