Civilization Wars: Map Development

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RaptorXI
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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Fri May 22, 2015 3:13 pm

Ok, will do.
I will work together with Lazerus for an official release, he knows much more about the wc3 editor had a long conversation with him and gave him the open version, so everyone of us can do his part.
The aim is more balanced (me) and stabile (him) version.
@Lazerus
Did i sum this up correctly?

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Fri May 22, 2015 3:15 pm

I am also learning about the wc3 editor, need more time-

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby Lazerus » Sat May 23, 2015 3:02 pm

I ran into some issues with the World Editor MOD "UMSWE" used for this map. I am working with the creators of this mod to find a fix. I currently have a full trigger written to fix the "Detonate Granery" bug along with a list of other buildings it is not needed for but had to stop writing code because my work wasn't being saved. I have a few more things I can try... @RaptorXI

UMSWE is the issue most the times. This modification has been kept just to allow the opening of old maps done with this mod.
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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Sat May 23, 2015 3:30 pm

The current version has been made 4 or 5 years ago, so it's not about 1 day or 2... take your time.

Summary for now: UMSWE is needed to get the map loaded, but it's causing stability problems, and future rleases of JNGP won't bring any more support than now.

So for a more stabile map we would have have have to rewrite the whole code (without UMSWE) ?

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Sun May 24, 2015 3:45 am

While results for the new map may take some time, heres is a guide for new players.
Instead of always complaining about stackes teams, learn the game, since you are the one with 0 games or bad stats, so people might acutally hire you on their team.
Our pros and most active players are geeting sick of explaining the same shit every game.

First of all, why did you join this game? Waiting time can be long and chances are very low you will win one of your first games anyway.
So you might just wanna leave instead and join more popular games like DotA or Legion TD or go back where you come from, you noob.

Question [Q]: What is Civilization Wars?
Answer [A]:

Civilization Wars is a team game for Warcraft III - The Frozen Throne:
Two factions with three players each fight for victory by land and by sea, research technologies,
raise income and go through all eras of mankind until there is one winner left.


Q: Is it fun?
A: Yes, it is. But it also supports competetive, professional playing with an amount of different strategies to win.

Q: Are there any modes?
A: Yes, player 1 (red) can decide the mode.
*Sidenote: feedback and suggestions about balance, metagaming etc will always be related to the standard mode,
which means no custom modes being iniziated.

Q: 1st game what to do?
A: There is a command to claim lanes, so either type -bot, -top or -mid. Once you claimed a lane, it is yours for the rest of the game,
you will be given an unlimited amount of build limit, but you are also responsible for what happens on your lane.
*Sidenote: When i was new, it was usual to start at the bottom lane. Nowadays it becomes more and more popular to start on the top lane instead.
However, learn those 2 lanes first before you go mid.

Q: The first round hasn't even started and I am already getting flamed by my team.
A: A reason might be, that you are building nothing or running around with your worker on the map, without doing nothing.

Q: I am getting flamed for producing more workers.
A: The worker you start with is enough to build up everything you need. More workers cost gold and need food.

Q: I am getting falmed for building a granary, someone started a votekick against me.
A: You maybe have seen that your maximum amount of food is always between 10 and 14.
This is because controlling the middle lanes gives food. If you use it all, you will get to maximum amount of 9 camps/docks,
wich is is enough to take your lane.

Q: I built a tower and more and more people want to kick me.
A: You keep making bullshit. Towers don't help you to take a lane, unless you know what you are doing.
But if you were, you wouldn't have problems at your lane.

Q: So what can I do?
A: Spend all gold into camps/docks, start teching at your capital, and upgrade, so you can finally push your damn lane.

Q: I managed to take push my lane. I have teched and upgraded everything.
A: So far, so good.

Q: I am getting flamed again for marketing.
A: Instead of keeping up the good work, you went selfish. Instead of spending everything you have into holding the lane, you are about to lose it again.

Q: People tell me to sell. What does that mean and how can I do that?
A: Besides your basic gold income, there is a material income for lumber. You can sell lumber for more gold at a trade market.

Q: I can't my lane with more support.
A: You suck.

I will stop writing here, since there is work to do about the map. Hope this helped a little if you have problems to find your way into the game.

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby rmp20002000 » Sun May 24, 2015 7:57 am

General changes:
- Workers don't do damage anymore, reduced their turnrate 0.60 => 0.10
- reduced the HP of a deactivated unit to 500, armor to 0


This is good. Players sometimes claim to use the worker for damage, but I feel it really is negligible. So now it's clearer if they are trying to pull. I believe the community is generally for banning "pulling". The reduction in hp of deactivated camps/docks with 0 armour is also good. This would encourage more players to block with a tower instead of just 1-2 camps.

Unit changes:
- remade and buffed Dromon
- remade and buffed Commando Mech


I'm neutral as the community rarely makes dromons for the sake of making dromons. Howevr, if they were stronger, maybe I would try out 1-3 dromons as a Top Lane player and try to get a "free" spawn using that. I feel this makes Dromons more useful. It also allows the top lane to have more flexibility because dromons can still upgrade in along both siege/gunpowder tech tree.

Wonder changes:
- remade the Mausoleum: a 2nd command aura that stacks with the units requiring leadership
- remade the Bazaar of Alexandria: increases cost 750 => 1000, it gives now 15 gold per set, instead of 20
- increased the cost of the Great Obelisk: gold 540 => 550, material 125 => 200
- increased the cost for the great Lighthouse: 1125 => 1200


I have mixed feelings about the Mausoleum aura if it is a different aura that stacks. With this "upgrade", I feel that it's cost should be increased, perhaps identical to Holy Cathedral (i.e. 1750 gold). The current Mausoleum is finely balanced I think because it is like the poor man's leadership upgrade, in that it is really cheap, and only gives you the aura, without the unit spawn, which on its own adds significant damage/HP to the lane. The leader spawn stacked is also a strong strategy.

I really like the changes to Bazaar. It is now more expensive than Colossus/Zeus/Gardens, and gives 25% less gold bonus. Firstly, I felt that 750 gold really makes it too easy to Bazaar. Second, I'm hoping that this change might allow income strategies to evolve to produce an alternative to bazaar where a player might opt to build one of the 3 (Colossus/Zeus/Gardens), and then building the remaining a second income wonder, as opposed to 1 income wonder + zipang.

I like the increase in material costs for Obelisk, which basically makes the obelisk pay off a little bit slower in terms of materials. I also like the increased cost for LH. I think this may encourage more players to consider going straight for Longboats and/or Quins to support top instead of getting the LH.

All in, I think RaptorXI has done a great job. I think the map we currently play on is quite well developed but playing at the "high level" of current ENT players has shown me that there are certain over/under-powered buildings/units that prevents us from getting the "full flavour".

Also RaptorXI, I think you mentioned something about giving towers that a player can build more HP and armor. I don't see that in this log but I remember you mentioning it. I think that would complement the reduced hp of deactivated buildings very well.
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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby rmp20002000 » Sun May 24, 2015 9:02 am

RaptorXI wrote:While results for the new map may take some time, heres is a guide for new players.
Instead of always complaining about stackes teams, learn the game, since you are the one with 0 games or bad stats, so people might acutally hire you on their team.


Just to make my basic contribution,

Q: What should I build in the "Top" (water) lane?
A: Build DOCKS. Don't build camps because the "nodes" (control points) for that lane is only accessible by water units.

Q: Where should I build the Docks?
A: Build the DOCKS between the Towers, right at the top of the map, near the "Island".

Q: Why do people want to draw or kick me when I build the docks in the wrong place?
A: 1) If they are too far behind, then the units will engage nearer to your tower, giving the opponent the first two "nodes" for free. The first node gives each team member +5 gold, the middle node gives each team member +15 gold, and the last node gives each team member +5 gold. Building too far behind means you're giving the opponent team +60 gold/tick (30 secs). 5 minutes X 120 gold = 600 gold, meaning your opponent team can each build 1 camp/dock/gran/tech than your team can. Another effect of building your camps too far behind is that your towers will take a lot of damage because your units will engage them later. This increases the risk of you losing your towers, and will also drain your gold from having to repair them more often.

2) If they are too far in front (nearer to the water's edge than the tower), they run the risk of being destroyed by stacks especially when the ranged units start to have longer ranges (meaning they will engage the camp much earlier before they see the towers, at which point they attack the towers).

Q: How many docks should I build?
A: 9 Docks

Q: I can only build 5-6 docks because I only have 10-11 food. What should I do next?
A: This is probably because the "middle" player has not managed to get the additional "food/middle" nodes which give you more food, to a maximum of 14. Monitor the progress of the battle in the mid-lane. If it is unlikely that your team can get the food, then you should "tech". If you're not sure, keep some gold (1 dock = 200 gold, 3 docks = 600 gold). Sometimes, the opponent might have overwhelming forces in the middle lane, in which case you can consider building 1 granary (not advised before 08:00).

Q: What should I upgrade my docks to?
A: Trireme > Galleys > Raiders > Trireme. That's the basic rock-paper-scissors for these units. On ENT, most mid players will support the top lane with 2-3 Raiders + 0-1 Trireme in the early game. Hence, most of the time, the mid player will ask you to build 3 trim, 5 galleys, and 1 raider. This will complement the support he will give you. If you're not sure, always ask your middle player.

Q: Why should I place some docks above the island?
A: 1) It is possible for a unit spawned right at the top of the map, to reach the other end, without engaging enemy units because of their limited vision. By building at least 1-2 docks above the island, such units cannot "sneak" past your units, thereby taking the nodes with little/no resistance. Units spawning above the island also have a tendency to "path"/flank, into the ranged units behind the melee units, which can be helpful.

Q: Should I build structures on the island?
A: Some players build their libraries/granaries in front of the island tower. The advantage here is that the library/granary can "tank" some damage from the enemy. The disadvantage here is that you can lose that library/granary. One way to defend against a "rush" in the top lane is to build land units on the island (e.g. longbows, catapults, ballistas, field cannons, siege cannons, ironworks, leonardo, airplane). Basically, this means that if you build structures like granaries on the island, there is less space for your team mates to build on to help you defend in the event of a "rush".

Q: What should I build in the "bottom lane"
A: Build CAMPS, not towers. You cannot build DOCKS because those can only be placed in the water.

Q: How many camps should I build?
A: Similar to the top lane, 9.

Q: Where should I build the camps?
A: Right at the bottom of the map, near the towers. Most players build their camps along the same vertical line as the towers. Advantages/disadvantages with building too far front or back are similar to Top lane.

Q: What should I upgrade my camps to?
A: There are many ways to upgrade your camps in the early game. Savage > Warrior, Axe>Spear>Horse>Archer. These are the basic rock-paper-scissors mechanics. I suggest you play a few games or watch replays to learn the advantages/disadvantages of upgrading different type/quantity of units. It goes without saying that "melee" units should be in front, while "ranged" units should be behind.

Q: Why do people want to draw the game or kick me when I build my camps in a tight formation (i.e. in a 3 X 3 square).
A: There are a number of units from early to late game that have "splash" damage. By placing your camps this tightly, you are making your units collectively weaker as they will all take more splash damage, and die faster. To reduce the effect of splash damage, you should try to spread out/space out your camps.

Q: Should I build an Ancient Wonder Builder (Furion) in my castle?
A: In general, you should not. Doing this will consume 1 food and 75 gold, meaning you will have 1 less camp/dock in your lane, automatically losing the lane to your opponent. Sometimes, a Top/Bottom Lane player might build an ancient wonder builder to build the Obelisk for another team mate. This is a strategy employed by advanced players in a style of play called IH (short for in-house).

Q: Should I build wonders?
A: See previous question. Without a wonder builder, you cannot build wonders. In general, only the Mid Player builds wonders.

Q: What should I build in the "middle" lane?
A: If you need to ask this question, you should not be playing in the middle lane. The middle lane is effectively the "leader" of the team. If you do not know how to play the bottom and/or top lane, you should not lead the team.

Q: The middle lane (Player 1/4, Red/Purple) is telling me to do certain things, should I listen to them?
A: See previous question. Civ Wars is a team-game, but unlike most WC3 custom games (e.g. DOTA. LTD), the individualistic actions of selfish lane players can be extremely disastrous to the entire team. Hence it is important to follow the lead of the middle player. This is extremely critical in situations like "rushes".

Q: My middle lane is not answering my questions, what do I do?
A: A good number of players do not use English as their native language. There are many Korean, Chinese, Russian, and other nationalities playing CIV on ENT. In such situations, it is best to keep your questions in fewer and simpler words. If they keep replying with "blank spaces", its because they are using a different script (e.g. Korean) and your computer lacks the proper script to display them. If there is no response at all, well, tough luck :D

Q: How can I learn more about the game?
A: The best way is to watch game replays. You can find CIV war replays here (https://entgaming.net/customstats/civwars/games/). Just click on a game, and then click on "Download". You will then see a log of all chat in the game, and links to download the actual .w3g replay file and the lobby chat.

Good luck and cheers!

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby supersexyy » Sun May 24, 2015 9:32 am

The changes aren't what is needed. Obelisk and lighthouse were fine. Bazaar wasn't even that op. It all comes down to how you prioritise the wonders.
make mauso stack is a bad change. The cost should be reduced to achieve balance, not to change the purpose of the wonder. As it now stacks it has lost its purpose. The main changes that need to be made are gameplay changes not pointless changes like these.
You should ask yourself 'what makes civ boring' and work on those. Things such as following 'perfect' build orders as top and bottom. Such as lane locking, etc
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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Sun May 24, 2015 11:45 am

This comes from my background as a bored pro at another map (Battletanks), who started to a play new map just for fun, then after finding out that there is a community, joined a clan (which you are a member of too, by the way), there getting a different view on the game.
At our old clan (POPE) we played many intern games, almost every day. Sadly that clan doesn't exist anymore, and most of the old pros are dead.
Traditionally the best players were honored by getting their names added on the loading screen. Since i will take the loading screen as Noz made it, you will find your own name on it, since you were one of them.
It seems you have switched the sides by now. I might promote the game fun by creating new custom modes more, so everyone can host the game thee way he likes it most. Or denying bots to disable custom modes. For example, my favorite mode mode is space + nukes. No one ever plays it.
Achieving perfect build orders, locking lanes and others, are part of following a strategy if you want to a win a game. Wich for me is the difference between amateurs and pros. Or can you one sportive discipline where you can earn a title wihtout any professionalism, training, experience?

Asking myself, what makes it boring, the result is: every game the same. The map is fully explored by now (= final version), this is why i believe updates are better than no updates. And since Dangime, Terrabull or XG won't do it for WC3, someone has to.

Thanks for your input.

Changelog Beta 42
The loading screen is now as NoZ made it

General changes:
- Workers don't do damage anymore, reduced their turnrate 0.60 => 0.20
- reduced the HP of a deactivated unit to 500, armor to 0
- non-starting towers have +50% Hp by now

Unit changes:
- remade and buffed Dromon
- remade and buffed Commando Mech
- Crossbowmen received +100 range

Wonder changes:
- remade the Mausoleum: a 2nd command aura that stacks with the units requiring leadership, increased cost to 1600
- remade the Bazaar of Alexandria: increases cost 750 => 1000, it gives now 15 gold per set, instead of 20
- increased the cost of the Great Obelisk: gold 540 => 550, material 125 => 200
- increased the cost for the great Lighthouse: 1125 => 1200
- reduced cost for Magellan's expedition: 2700 => 2500
- reduced cost for Big Ben: 4200 => 4000

Other changes:
- fixed some small bugs
Attachments
Civilization Wars 2.30 Beta 42.w3x
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supersexyy
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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby supersexyy » Sun May 24, 2015 11:56 am

'fully explorered' because there's a lack of skill in the game. Top does the same thing, bottom does the same thing every game. There are ways to break this stale game play that are outside the realms of balancing.
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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby Krayyzie » Sun May 24, 2015 12:01 pm

Seems like most changes are working out in the way holding 1 lane = game over... Obelisk is a nice wonder, but its not OP, lighthouse isnt even very strong, Maosuleum is quite weak, but with this change, it would probably be op(I even used Maosuleum as it is now in certain games)
Like supersexyy says , Bazaar isnt that op as it is now, im sure it looks like that in the pub games u play, but once it goes competetive with good skilled players, those changes are killing all other plays than top rush from start and 100% hold on bottom lane. Whoever fails with those 2 plays will loose the game...

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby Krayyzie » Sun May 24, 2015 12:03 pm

Not to mention crossbowmen are already an insanely useful unit, and u strengthen it even more...

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Sun May 24, 2015 12:57 pm

Krayyzie wrote:Seems like most changes are working out in the way holding 1 lane = game over...


That is a problem in any game. Can you beat a grandmaster in chess when you start with a rook less?

http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 571103.w3g
(27:46 / Allied) dutchgreedlove: vs bazaar
(27:51 / Allied) dutchgreedlove: please lock one lane hard
(27:55 / Allied) dutchgreedlove: u cant play reac deac game

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby RaptorXI » Sun May 24, 2015 1:04 pm

@supersexyy

YOU uploaded tis very version, which is now on Ent16.
YOU made suggestions like this:
https://entgaming.net/forum/viewtopic.p ... era+modern

And now telling me that the map will suck if we allow those modes again?

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Re: Civilization Wars: Map Development

Postby Krayyzie » Sun May 24, 2015 3:20 pm

(27:46 / Allied) dutchgreedlove: vs bazaar
(27:51 / Allied) dutchgreedlove: please lock one lane hard
(27:55 / Allied) dutchgreedlove: u cant play reac deac game


exactly..those 2 plays are quite even with the map, by making bazaar weaker, you remove that play...


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