Remove Warrs strat

[Hakuna]

I loathe warriors on 1. It removes all the enjoyment from the game. There is no place in this beautiful creation of a game for such a vile, disgusting thing in it.

I think the barracks should be inactive until the wave 1 starts, so the soonest it's possible to send anything is for 2.

As further defense of my position on this, Legion is about interpreting your opponents moves and reacting appropriately to play and counter-play their moves. Sending Warriors on 1 literally is a complete gamble. Some people will build to counter it, going solo with extra value or picking units like aquas, engineers, lod that can survive it, but anybody who doesn't just gets steamrolled by it. Sending hermits wave 2 because you think they probably have wc based on the kill speed at least has some reaction to them to it, but warriors on 1 is a complete gamble and I do not think illustrates strong strategy at all.

Please remove it. Make Legion TD great again.

[Brandom]

I think that send lvl 1 is most skill involving aspect of ltd in early game.
On sender team:
1. U have to judge if warr send is actually good for your team (how hard can your team push, how strong is your team lvl 2 and 3)
2. U have to look at speed, hp and bounty of leaks and determine what enemy has (it is easy to recognize ygg, ea, sg, malformation and few other leaks)
3. Sometimes after scout lvl 1 it is possible to predict str8 7 and capitalize on that knowledge with extra push.
4. And finally u need to count how much king gold will u get to know how many extra wisps can u get.

On warr receiver team:
1. First thing u should do when game starts is checking your teammates rolls and recognising on which key lvl (1/3/5/7/8/10/12) is your team weak and build accordingly, so if u know that your team is bad 1 you should ob or ask someone to ob (250 aqua instead of 200, 3 turrets instead of 2, ea with t1, wolverine with t1 etc.). If u will see early where your team is weak, lvl 1 should almost never be big problem.
2. Warr send give receiver team almost free scout but lots of people dont really use it. Warr send means that enemy team have hard pushers rolls and if there was no bow u know that there is no harlot/greymane/cava/ygg/sg/lod/spawn which indicate lvl 5 and 7 weaknes (only turret and ea are good 5 and start with 2/0 I think)
3. Same like sender team u have to be able to count how much king gold will u get.

Lvl 1 send is really interesting and it protect ltd from some crazy strats like 125g prisoner or 150g aqua start, removing warrs from ltd would be insane

[bezdak]

Pretty much what Brandom said. Judging by your arguments, you haven't experienced a high level LTD yet. Keep playing a lot and you'll get that sending warrs is not just "we all 2/0, let's send" thingy.

Btw. first time hearing about a pris lvl 1 strat Brandom

[Brandom]

@bezdak
I saw sk-73 building single priso once in 1200+ and it held but if there was no warrs it would be proly more common start

Tried in it -debug and looks like it never holds unles -spawnall, similar to cyborg but 75g cheaper and somewhat weaker.

[bezdak]

I don't doubt the holding potential, I just don't get it, you need that 2nd pris and stay 2/0 either way... that's the dumbest thing I've heard somebody trying rly

[Kreutertee]

Well, 1 prisoner holding level one isn't really big news. Most somewhat experienced players will know that. But the reason for it not being more popular is certainly not warriors in level 1.

The only reason you'd go 125 value is to straight go 4/0, but then you end up with 144g in 2. So basically another prisoner and a t1. And that's where your problems would start. Holding 2 without send is already hard then. If send in 2, you're auto dead. Almost the same goes for level 3. Where 3 prisoner barely hold level 3 to no send you won't have much more than 3 prisoner and 50g of t1 garbage. Not enough to live against furb or bo.

Fair enough, if you get like mines, level 2 can work nicely maybe, but it's very rare unit combinations where you could leverage the early push and not being dead.
While level 2 send on mega bot is uncommon, it seems warrior send on 1 is common, so either way a problem.

This only makes sense if you play cross or wanna feed your opposite Lane and yolo hard. Anything else would be like 5% advantageous, and 95% tk

But back to topic: no, can't just forbid sending units only because it's inconvenient to you

[Brandom]

I checked all moonlights replays but looks like not all replays are saved so sadly I couldnt find that one (it was like 1-3 moths ago)
I dont remember how he did it but it worked really good with 4/0 or 3/1 push, I am pretty sure that single prisoner lvl1 is viable in some rare situations.

But that doesnt really matter, the point I wanted to make was that lvl1 send almost eliminate some super risky strats which are 100% suecide against warrs.



EDIT: Out of curiosity I tried few possible builds on lvl 2 with 1 priso+no more than 265 value and well, most of them sucks but few could mayby work with some luck
these builds sometimes leak if unlucky, usually hold tho
copter
2 infa t1
4 ogres
guardian t1
sprite 3t1
engi
1 rev mas acolytes
ice troll 2 t1
These last 4 combination are not terrible, hold 2 easy and dont leak super hard to furb (builds above would leak almot full wave to furb ), additonaly it should be not hard to hold lvl3
blood orc warrior 2 t1
mass acolytes (proly massing any t1 would work good but only revs arent dead value)
2 meat wagons
engi 3t1 (ik normal engi build would work much better but I tried it just for science )

[Hakuna]

Well, given that none of you are 1200- players, (I would interpret based on how you all talk about the strategies in the game) I can see how it wouldn't affect you, given the games you play in are much higher skill and involve players who know how to react to those things.

In the normal ENT Mega bot, you can't be sure that every game you will have the units to be the lvl1 anti warrior builder, and so you are depending on your teammates, random people with any kind of skill and game sense, to not be morons. It just doesn't happen, people.

Make Legion TD great again.

[Kreutertee]

But don't they also take a risk? If all are 2/0 it's unlikely they cross.
Whereas Cross build can basically recover at any point.
Cross can hold strong sends in 14, 15, 17....

Also, if they send warrs you will undoubtedly have time for at least one bloodorc to send in 2. Maybe two or even three. Sending vs Yolo in level 2 can be pro. Undervalued,
Vs Bo. Can get you back a lot of gold and right back into game.

Solo players can die easy. If they fail on 10. If they fail vs normal send 14 where Noone goes to mid.

Sure, people still can merge their lanes. But then again, aren't they also a bunch of random people they would have trust in order to do that properly?

I think your arguments lack a lot of farsight and are a bit narrow-minded. In my opinion there are many reasons and possibilities how warriors affect both sides. To the better and the worse.

Just demanding "don't allow this and that" doesn't really solve any problem. And since there's nothing broken or imbalanced about warriors, there certainly won't change anything.

Following that logic, also demons should be forbidden, double demon even more. Mass sends should be forbidden on 10, lumber saving should be forbidden, not holding your own lane should be forbidden. Merging lanes should be forbidden. All these things give you an advantage to some point with the result of not playing till level 31.

Cause let's face it, anything that potentially prevents the players to reach level 31 would need to be forbidden as it doesn't allow you to finish the game as it was originally intended.

[bezdak]

Well, given that none of you are 1200- players, (I would interpret based on how you all talk about the strategies in the game) I can see how it wouldn't affect you, given the games you play in are much higher skill and involve players who know how to react to those things.

The game is not supposed to change because players are not able to react properly, it's players who should learn and play accordingly. It would be only reducing the difficulty. If that type of LTD is what you're looking for, then I strongly recommend you playing on the BK bot instead, which is much more noob-friendly for the price of almost destroying the competitiveness. Or you can try to move forward and get 1200+ for more intense games.

[Hakuna]

Ok look, I get where you guys are coming from saying that removing something from the game is petty and that there are pros and cons.

Kreu, you say that there is nothing imbalanced about warriors. What about the fact that nearly every standard build is weak to them? Is there any other send that pretty much guarantees a leak against almost all builds? There are builds that hold into warriors, yes, but most of them are 250+ gold. requiring you to stay 1/0 (which not many people do unless they are in a cross) and numerous builds of 250+ still can't hold. (ygg, wc, etc)

You say that demons should be removed based on my argument. Here's the thing. When you send a demon, you are still choosing the wave to send on based on the game so far, how strong you are vs how strong they are on given waves and such. There IS strategy to sending demons, where there is NO "counterplay" to sending warriors. The one argument one of you made about assessing your team's strength to hold a big counter-send on 2/3 is the one argument I do respect. It's a good argument. Still, warriors can absolutely cripple some builds to the point they never recover. That is the part that disgusts me. To be declawed right from the first wave so hard that I never am relevant again just feels so disgusting.

As for double demons it's not like it's guaranteed to pull off. Sure, if you are skilled enough to know just how much to build so you slow leak then it becomes easier. That isn't the case for most players in Mega, though. Also requires players to push a fair amount which isn't a given either.

As for the response to my criticism being "GTFO noob go play on another server", all I can say is, WTF? I am making a legitimate complaint and explaining clearly my reasoning. I want to play here because I like the ELO and I like the competition, and I want it to be better and more fun. I wouldn't suggest stupid things like "please make archers cost less and be guaranteed as t2 so I can build them more", I am making a BALANCE suggestion based on what I perceive to be a critical IMBALANCE.

Anyway I'm not expecting to convince anyone and that's fine. Just please relax on telling me how much of a noob I am and how I should stop playing ENT. That's just toxic.

[supersexyy]

What about the fact that nearly every standard build is weak to them?

Your definition of standard is very strange. Also your whole argument of warrs being op because of the meta of pushing is just weird.

[epicdeath]

Common things that hold warrs:

- LOD
- 3x sprite
- 250 aqua (300 is tk but obvs much stronger)
- spawn
- bear/harlot/knight with bottom feeder (you lose 9g to hold warrs as opposed to leaking hard if adding a t1 only)
- alche w/ egg, warlock, bottom feeder, and more
- warchief (usually)
- 2x malformation + t2 or even 3x if ur keen
- 1/0 or 2/0 turret (3x turret+t1 or 2x turret+t2)
- 200 engineer build
- 3x meatwagon w/ add (without add has chance to leak)
- frost dragon
- hellraiser with add
- elite archer with t1 (only if t1 placed properly)
- prisoner
- moon guard (not exactly common but still)
- pyro with add (based on luck, can stay 1/0 for sure hold if team weak to warrs)
- disciple with add (can hold alone with 3/0 if not unlucky)
- 3x blood orc warrior (have heard wolverine with add also holds but not sure)
- 270 value raider/gateguard (normally i prefer underbuilding with these, 180 value, since they're suicide units so feed doesnt help you much)
- basically any unit with 3x landmine behind them

- ygg has a chance to hold warrs if it stays on the wall, improve this chance with a 10g t1

- 300 value of most units/combos will hold warriors without a problem, particularly cheaper units that are strong level 1. Warlock costs $60 and onehits level 1 so its an extremely good add to a unit like alchemist to hold warriors since it doesnt waste damage. Bottom feeder is also a strong add as with many combos you can lose 9g for the upside of holding warriors.

Feel free to add any more units/combos I probably forgot some but seriously mate if nobody on your team takes any measure to hold warriors then that's on you guys since there are plenty more ways to hold warrs then just the ~standard~ ones I mentioned here.

[Hakuna]

Common things that hold warrs:

- LOD 300g
- 3x sprite not what I would call common in Mega
- 250 aqua (300 is tk but obvs much stronger) considered overbuilding unless in a cross and I did mention aquas
- spawn 265g
- bear/harlot/knight with bottom feeder (you lose 9g to hold warrs as opposed to leaking hard if adding a t1 only) 265g/265g/285g
- alche w/ egg, warlock, bottom feeder, and more not common in Mega to build anything along with alch because if they do not send you don't get second alch for 2
- warchief (usually) not in a cross (usually)
- 2x malformation + t2 or even 3x if ur keen Malformations are awesome units, probably imba, and I forgot about them
- 1/0 or 2/0 turret (3x turret+t1 or 2x turret+t2) again not common in Mega to build so many on wave 1
- 200 engineer build I believe I mentioned this
- 3x meatwagon w/ add (without add has chance to leak) not common to have any addition in Mega
- frost dragon completely unheard of in Mega
- hellraiser with add completely unheard of in Mega. Also, 255g + the add
- elite archer with t1 (only if t1 placed properly) reasonable
- prisoner you mean two prisoners. Reasonable.
- moon guard (not exactly common but still) agreed
- pyro with add (based on luck, can stay 1/0 for sure hold if team weak to warrs) reasonable
- disciple with add (can hold alone with 3/0 if not unlucky) not common
- 3x blood orc warrior (have heard wolverine with add also holds but not sure) not common, super ob
- 270 value raider/gateguard (normally i prefer underbuilding with these, 180 value, since they're suicide units so feed doesnt help you much) agreed and uncommon
- basically any unit with 3x landmine behind them unheard of in Mega

- ygg has a chance to hold warrs if it stays on the wall, improve this chance with a 10g t1 not in a cross

- 300 value of most units/combos will hold warriors without a problem, particularly cheaper units that are strong level 1. Warlock costs $60 and onehits level 1 so its an extremely good add to a unit like alchemist to hold warriors since it doesnt waste damage. Bottom feeder is also a strong add as with many combos you can lose 9g for the upside of holding warriors. which is what I was saying. spending that much to hold is really uncommon and I think indicates a balancing issue.

Feel free to add any more units/combos I probably forgot some but seriously mate if nobody on your team takes any measure to hold warriors then that's on you guys since there are plenty more ways to hold warrs then just the ~standard~ ones I mentioned here.

You only mentioned a few builds that I didn't think of. The majority of them were not in the category I was criticising, which is the default +1 wisp solo lane build. I say COMMON based on my experience playing in the Mega bot, and I would not consider myself to have a small number of games played. (certainly not as many as you tools, but well over 200. You're going to laugh and scorn me but I don't gaf about your elitism that requires 10k+ games to know how to play. I have played enough to be well familiar with all the units in the game, to have introduced many friends to the game to due how much I enjoy it, to have seen many revisions of game version, and to in general have a strong presence on my team in terms of game knowledge and shot calls. The superiority complex of everyone on the f-ing forum is disgusting and I hope you get some reasonable people here someday but I bet you alienate them all with your toxicity.)

[Jabba41]

I don't know what triggered you so hard @hakuna bit toxicity isn't in this topic... they just tell you their view on it and you think it's personal. broud3r can read your suggestion. the topic is locked, no need for more "I defend myself" posts.