New DotA v6.85ne14b Map - Changes and Things You Need To Know

[freshP]

All, a poll has been added to this post which will last for 7 days. We will collect the votes and make a determination if we should stay on new map, revert back to 6.83 or we need more time on the new map. A decision will be made on 1/29 at 12 PM EST.

Hey Mike, just a thought: people come here to complain. And they are usually loud while doing so. The ones totally fine with the changes might remain unheard.
Maybe add a message in the lobby to remind them, that they need to vote.

Cause in the worst case necessary and good changes will be reverted. To satisfy people, who actually can't be satisfied.

[kevin9188]

Sorry - i do not like new map and will likely play less if it stays.

[kovgrozko]

Wc3 Since 2001... b-net is dead , so I moved here. The new dota... not sure about that. Being 35 years old with a kid don't really have the time to learn the all new .... played it once , and probably never again. Bring the old one back .

[RichardCoffee]

here are some new things I noticed about this map which I perceived as negatives.

#1) They closed the side woods path at tower 3, bot lane (scourge).
#2) They changed the pathing of the little woods cove near mid tower 3 (scourge).
#3) There is a half second delay added to Axe's call.
#4) I agree SK with Agha is stupid. SK is one of the dumbest heros in the entire game with 2 lives, and he didn't need more flexibility and even more teamplaying ability.
#5) It seems like that mid river has slightly more spacing now. I was trying to do hooks as a pudge and it wasn't really covering the distance like it usually would. Kinda threw me off. Not sure what happened, but something changed.
#6) Diffusal no longer dispels warlock golems at all. At the same time, it now seems to have no CD whatsoever.
#7) Refresher is now 2 Pers, which makes it a somewhat less viable item. Doesn't give you the Mana + attk with staff that you would normally get.
#8) Heart now seems to cost an extra 200 gold, for no real reason.

[showtime18]

Astros, Mike

Is it possible to know what you are doing to do ?

Is it possible to have version with :

NEW MAP
OLD HERO
NEW ITEMS

And at this points, change hero one by one.

Please feedback me.

The King Techies :0)

[MIKEJONES]

Astros, Mike

Is it possible to know what you are doing to do ?

Is it possible to have version with :

NEW MAP
OLD HERO
NEW ITEMS

And at this points, change hero one by one.

Please feedback me.

The King Techies :0)

Hi, there are only 2 versions you can vote for

1. The new map v6.85ne14b
or
2. The old map v6.83.

No there is not another map version or customization in question today. Once changed we will no longer speak about any map changes anymore. Good luck

[MIKEJONES]

All, a poll has been added to this post which will last for 7 days. We will collect the votes and make a determination if we should stay on new map, revert back to 6.83 or we need more time on the new map. A decision will be made on 1/29 at 12 PM EST.

Note: You are allowed to select up to 2 options. This is incase you are not fully sure yet and need more time on the new map. You are able/allowed to change your vote within the 7 days.

Final words - Regardless, if the decision is to stay on the new map 6.85 or revert back to the old 6.83 we will not be changing it again for another decade (exactly how some of you folks like it). Just to reiterate this, if the decision is to stay on the new map 6.85 (DotA v6.85ne14b.w3x) this exact version that will remain with no foreseeable or expected upgrade/updates in the future (not even minor updates) and don't ask us for any upgrades in the future. The same applies if the decision is to revert back to old map.

Please make your votes. Thank you.

Bumping this to the front

[Frank]

I know I'm not an active player here anymore, but I'll add my 2 cents as a long time ex-dota player here if anyone cares to read.

Firstly I think this is a positive change overall for ENT, if it doesn't impact the long term playerbase too much. I'm not sure what the statistics for daily games played are, but I'd argue if you saw a decrease of 25% + over however long the new map has been running - I'd proceed with caution.

I have not played this map yet (have played it long ago in Dota 2) so I will refrain from voting to not skew the results, however iirc there are some much needed balance changes purely based on some of the new items. Let's take silver edge, the upgraded lothars for example. This item introduced the Break ability, a much needed answer to some strong passives that required hard hero counters.
Previously the Break ability (disables passives) was only available from Doom's ulti and Shadow Demon's upgraded ulti. Now if someone last picks Huskar, or Spec you could theoretically build silver edge on someone to manage their very strong passives. Octarine core another new item allows some INT cores to scale better into the late game. For example invoker, has this 4 spell teamfight combo (Nado -> emp -> meteor -> defeaning blast) where its only possible to pull off in quick succession if you have an octarine core, allowing new creative playstyles. It also gives those INT carries a form of lifesteal since they don't naturally like to build stuff like satanic.

I won't go into hero balance too much since the main issue in ENT isn't so much the hero balance (more on later). But if I'm not mistaken heroes like Ursa and Terrorblade got some major buffs which lets them hard counter some previously obnoxious heroes. In this case terrorblade hard counters spec with the reworked reflection ability. Other dominant heroes like Lina/Leshrac got nerfed as well.

Now for the real problem. These heroes and the numbers have always been tweaked with non em in mind. Easy mode throws that careful balance out of the window, for the most important part of the game which is the laning phase. Alot of supports seem weak in easy mode 6.83. That's because they were balanced to be strong early where the enemy carry has to carefully manage his resources (exp and gold). In non-em as a late game carry, you have to carefully balance how you spend your gold between laning items such as regen/stats, farming items, or kill items. Easy mode fucks with that balance, which makes the supports time of shine almost non existant. I'd argue in easy mode supports have about 2 minutes (4 creepwaves) to make a huge impact, before the enemy carries become self sufficient enough due to excess gold. After that, the games are largely out of their hands and mainly on the hard carries backs. Of course supports have other duties past the laning stage, but they are most threatening in the first 10 minutes. Conversely, the impact of good laning from supports players in non-em will be felt until the game ends.

As a last thought, changing the mode to non-em should be a higher priority over changing the map. Ideally you would have both, if the goal is overall progression of the playerbases' skill. Its difficult to make a decision like this, since people are naturally adverse to change. I've said this somewhere in another thread in the past, but I believe, excluding a select few that the majority of players play this game as a social hub as opposed to a place to hone their skills or improve systematically in a game they enjoy.

Hopefully players have grown up from when we started playing this game years ago and are able to see that change in the long term is a positive thing. Comfort is the enemy of growth.

Good luck either way.

[freshP]

So as far as I've observed I personally don't benefit from the mapchange. Yet the games seem a lot more balanced and I like the updated map. Also some players, who were obnoxiously underperforming in the past, are suddenly normal teammates (with foreseeable flaws).
I totally get the playrs, who spent a lot of time to optimize their play according to the flaws of the old map. But I hope they will see the mapchange as an opportunity to progress.

Someone stated in the lobby, this map isn't made for easy mode. And I think a lot of the negative feedback results from this.

Anyways, these are the things i observed regarding the general gameplay:
- farming woods doesn't pay out. You will get more gold and XP if you stay in lane and play/gank with your team (except you are a really good woodfarmer, which none of us is)
- just stick to your usual itembuild. This was mentioned in the first post of this thread and couldn't be more precise.
- certain agility heroes aren't that op in lategame, as they used to be.
- Helm of Dominator doesn't stack with Eye of Skadi anymore.
- the new map might need some adjustments regarding your gfx settings. I now have load times below 4 seconds and zero freezes or fps drops.

My conclusion: the new map needs some games to get used to it, but then it's totally fine. The new items aren't very game-deciding. Bad players will be bad players, no matter the map.

[dumpster_]

Usually when games get updates, it's an improvement, but here that's not necessarily the case.
As others have said, the balance changes were made with non-em mode in mind.
So for -em, the new map isn't strictly better, it's just different.

To those saying we're simply resistant to change, you're right.
I'm happy with the old map, and if the new one isn't necessarily an improvement, what's wrong with staying on the old one?
I have enough new experiences in real life.

Updating will bring back players that left because ENT got stagnant?
There are other platforms to play more recent maps.
Why would anyone come back here if they already found a new home elsewhere?

It's still not clear what the big picture plan is.
There were hints that this is only a first step to ease us into more updates in the future.
I come here to play the map that I know and like.
If I wanted to play other maps, I'd have left long ago.
And for the record I did try other maps long before this thread. I played a bit on RGC and bnet. And I tried this one in single player before it was forced on us.

Some people are saying that change will motivate the noobs to learn and get better.
Get real. They had a decade to do that already.

I'm just not seeing any objective reasons why this is an improvement.
If it's a stepping stone to even later versions that have talents and shrines and shit, then fuck no.
Unless you actually know that old players will definitely come back, pushing even more upgrades would be a great way to kill this place.
And if it's just this one upgrade, then what's the point?
It's not any better, it's just different.
Some things are worse in my opinion.
I absolutely hate many of the graphical changes that nobody asked for.

Mike was talking all this fancy talk about not falling behind on "compatibility, tooling, bot support, and player expectations".
In a matter of days that changed to "no foreseeable or expected upgrade/updates in the future (not even minor updates) and don't ask us for any upgrades in the future".
Interesting.
You force a change that nobody asked for, and you're upset that we don't like it?
And if hermit releases another bug fix for the old map, you won't even update that?
What about "player expectations" bro?
And still no explanation of what any of that other nonsense meant.
Interesting.
Y'all can't even disable voting for mode changes and you had some grand ambitions of modernizing this place to stay up to date with "compatibility, tooling, bot support, and player expectations"?

If you want to keep this place alive, how about getting rid of the ruiners?
It took multiple essays from smolboi for you to finally get rid of superballer, and now he's back.
I'm sure it's only a matter of time before he starts doing his same old shit, if he hasn't already.
Most people don't have smolboi's dedication, so will it just keep happening?
The old map is not the reason this place is dying, and changing it won't fix anything.
It might even speed it up.

[mk4r32]

This dumpster is having a nervous breakdown about the new map. It's giving him panic attacks thinking about having to perfect his "game strategy" during his new learning curve.

"I tried this one in single player before it was forced on us" LMFAO

Talk about "talking down" - Stop trying so hard to nitpick anything and everything Mike says you fucking grudge holding self entitled POS.

If you voted no, STFU already and let the poll handle itself psychobitch.

[MIKEJONES]

Thank you all for the time, feedback, votes, forum posts, and in-game discussion. The community has spoken clearly and consistently across every channel.

Based on the totality of feedback, it’s evident that while DotA 6.85 is not perfect, it brings substantial improvements and freshness compared to the extremely dated 6.83. Multiple players who were initially 100% against the new map changed their position after 10 or so games, realizing it is fundamentally the same game, just upgraded. New items, slightly different pacing, but the same core DotA you’ve been playing for years.

Yes, there are still 4–5 players who are deeply upset and predicting the total collapse of the ENT DotA community. That narrative has not matched reality.

We have been on this map for 10 days. Average game counts dipped slightly, which is expected during any transition, but the community did not die. Players are not waiting 4–5 hours for games. Lobbies are still forming. Games are still being played. ENT is still standing. Our community may be small, but it has always been resilient.

Let’s be honest about what this really is. The game did not fundamentally change. What changed is comfort. A deep attachment to familiarity, and resistance to change that wasn’t personally requested. That’s human, but it is not a reason to freeze the community in time.

With time, more players will adapt, adjust, and very likely come to prefer this version once they stop fighting it and actually give it a fair chance.

This decision is final.
We are staying on the new map: DotA 6.85ne14b.
Minor updates or fixes on this map in the future is not guaranteed (you can talk to h3rmit)

To the 4-5 players strongly opposed, I understand your frustration and I’m sorry this change feels forced. I genuinely hope that over time you can extend some empathy to those who enjoy the new map and give this map a fair chance yourself.

Topic Locked.