Island Defense Community Update, !Draw?

[Yarragon]

"Further thoughts, it has been discussed that the lobby mutually agreeing to leave is ok. Similar to the !draw you guys use in other games hosted.In this case, are we still bound by the 15 minute ruling if a mod decides to review the game? If a single player decides they want to keep playing, even though 11 others have said they don't, and that ONE player requests they all get banned the way I did, warrant such actions?"

Followed by, "Literally 90% of games have some sort of concede option available these days. DotA2, League, Counter-Strike, hell, even other games hosted by ENT have a !draw or !ff command.

The rules clarification would for one, take us a step closer to this option being available, and two - Clarify what they mean." - Taken from the following threads.

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=129706 - Ban request regarding the stalling rules and worker block for builders
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=128756 - Suggestion to UPDATE AND CLARIFY the new builder leaving rule. It's worth noting here, that some mods choose to ONLY BAN THE FIRST THREE BUILDER LEAVERS, while others BAN EVERYONE THAT LEAVES PRIOR TO 15 MINUTES.

Examples of this:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=128740&p=500252#p500252 - This was overturned (which I was happy about) but everyone in this lobby got banned, and would have been banned had the original titan not left the game.
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=129427
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=129172
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=129015
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=129616

Edit2: Here's one where 4 people leave within the first 15 minutes, and yet only 2 get banned - viewtopic.php?f=24&t=129919 I recognize 3 of the 4 names, and the one name I don't recognize ended up banned.

In regards to the Island Defense community, on the topic of stalling and the new leaver rule (which I was not AGAINST, simply asking for an official clarification). I'm bringing this up, because there were in game situations not covered, that essentially contradicted everything talked about over the past month.

I would like to reiterate, I am not against the leaving rule. I think it has done good for the game as a whole. However, MOST of the community was for the update on only the first 3 leavers of the game being banned, as it was the original intention - To add a sense of fair balance to both sides when enforcing said rule. The suggestion was denied, even though it would have brought us towards adding the !draw command or !forfeit command, which was relevant in the above posted link in regards to stalling.

Suggestion TL;DR - Add some sort of !draw or !ff command, and situations similar to these are avoided* - and I'll stop giving you guys a headache.

Edit: Because I got called out on using the word "completely" when that's not exactly the case.

[Panopticon]

Suggestion TL;DR - Add some sort of !draw or !ff command, and situations similar to these are avoided* - and I'll stop giving you guys headache

Potential mode abuse, unnecessary usage(s) and most importantly; No stats being recorded. No need to add these as they're not necessary in a game like Island Defense; you see them in games like DotA2 because those are highly competitive with a stat recording/skill rating system while ID is just merely a survival custom game.

Not going to support something that's only going to be treated as a weapon. We've already been over the topic of builder leaving and it's "clarification" and I don't see anything new from this but bringing up the past.

!against

[Yarragon]

Explain to me how this could be "treated as a weapon" when currently everything about the game is open to interpretation, and potentially can lead to two hour long games that are generally unfun, or 5 minute games that are totally one sided? I'm asking for a consensus feature to be added - it harms the game in no way shape or form. It's just a simple, "Hey, let's move on. This one is pretty clear."

Also, Avion I haven't seen you play the game in over three months. And the last time we played together, you spent 20 minutes making "art" while the rest of us trolled around. Not that I didn't enjoy that sort of thing.

Edit: If we're talking about the competitive aspect, why is it on TD games? They're simple building survival custom games.

[Kappa]

1) Since there is no ELO, I don't think !draw is necessary.

EDIT: The fear I have about implementing a builder !ff is that the builder leaving rule was implemented to prevent everyone from leaving the lobby after Titan got 2 early kills and ruining his game. I suppose he gets the win in !ff scenario, but I can imagine the same deal happening - Titan gets 2 early kills, Builders !ff and leave. I'd rather see a !draw command that Titan must participate in to pass it before Builder !ff as I don't think this would affect the gameplay nearly as much and could be useful in some circumstances. But its still unnecessary imo.

2) If all players - Titan and Builders - in game agree to leave the game/go new game before 15 minutes they can leave and there should be no ban requests reported as a result. This should only happen for extenuating reasons such as desyncs or game ruining bugs. Titan can always quit after 3 alive builders leave.

3) Since the rules have been created, I've limited the number of builders that I will ban for leaving based on the game situation. If an entire lobby of builders leaves before 15 minutes, I think it would be silly to blame the last builder that leaves the same as the first. At some point, leavers have ruined the game enough where others leaving seems reasonable. That is my interpretation of the rules. Another example is I had 4 players desync in a game leaving Titan and 2 minis vs 2 Builders before 15 minutes. The remaining 2 Builders left the game and got reported but did not receive a ban.

Mods are capable of using their own discretion when reviewing ban requests. I think the current rules are fine as is.

[e0e0e0e0]

Draw/FF should be implemented:

!draw for draw game should require 4 people, including the titan to !draw and end game.
!ff should require 3-4 builders at most, to forfeit to titan

This will help to end boring/predetermined games for both sides, averting time wasting.

[confirm-okt]

People in the ID community whether it's a pug or a tryhard in the Azeroth discord are really stubborn and don't like to give up wins even if they don't mean a whole lot because no ELO/ranking anymore. Wins and losses are recorded and some people cling to those as a sort of psuedo-rank; I've seen too many games go on far too long just because neither side wants to give up the win. I think !draw is necessary, but only for extreme scenarios such like the one in Kaz's ban request where both sides are stuck in a stalemate and want to tie the game so that they can move on.

If the requirements for a successful !draw vote are strict then vote abuse will not be commonplace or even possible. In my honest opinion it should be:

!ff (Titan): Doesn't need one. Titan can leave or sui trying to siege after the 15 minute mark to declare a loss.
!ff (Builders): Doesn't need one. Builders can leave after the 15 minute mark which isn't that long to wait for.
!draw: Requires vote from titan and all remaining builders. This way no remaining player is dissatisfied with the outcome of the game. Builders who died or became observers earlier in the game may not like the outcome of the game, but they are no longer there to play the game out and thus have no control over the outcome of the game without a !draw command.

[e0e0e0e0]

People in the ID community whether it's a pug or a tryhard in the Azeroth discord are really stubborn and don't like to give up wins even if they don't mean a whole lot because no ELO/ranking anymore. Wins and losses are recorded and some people cling to those as a sort of psuedo-rank; I've seen too many games go on far too long just because neither side wants to give up the win. I think !draw is necessary, but only for extreme scenarios such like the one in Kaz's ban request where both sides are stuck in a stalemate and want to tie the game so that they can move on.

If the requirements for a successful !draw vote are strict then vote abuse will not be commonplace or even possible. In my honest opinion it should be:

!ff (Titan): Doesn't need one. Titan can leave or sui trying to siege after the 15 minute mark to declare a loss.
!ff (Builders): Doesn't need one. Builders can leave after the 15 minute mark which isn't that long to wait for.
!draw: Requires vote from titan and all remaining builders. This way no remaining player is dissatisfied with the outcome of the game. Builders who died or became observers earlier in the game may not like the outcome of the game, but they are no longer there to play the game out and thus have no control over the outcome of the game without a !draw command.

Builders most definitely need a !ff command, instead of waiting for 15 min to leave, they can preemptively take the loss by forfeit, to save both sides time, otherwise both titan and builders will be tortured for 15 minutes, stuck in a game they don't want to play.

[Yarragon]

Confirm and Poe have said what I have been trying to get across - We're not looking to circumvent the rules, nor are we "using this as a weapon" whatever that means. We just want a way to say the game is over and avoid wasting more time. I'd also like you guys to take into consideration the support that *was* there for adding the clarification to the rule in the previous posted thread.

I've also tried to get some of the less active members of the community to come share their opinion, but most of the time a large portion of them don't use the forums unless it's for a ban request / appeal. There is a larger section of the community than shows on the website, and almost no one would complain about a draw feature. Especially for use in the case that multiple people desync from the game, which has been relatively common after blizzard's official game patch.

[Nun]

idk man

[FollowingPath]

How would it work?
In order for it not to be abused by builders it would have to require 100% participation and for the Titan to !draw as well, and in a case of someone who is solely out to pubstomp as Titan, they're not going to !draw just because a few people leave - they want the win.
Like @confirm-okt said, the current ID player base is so hungry for wins that they'll even resort to strategies that they themselves find boring just because it has a high winrate. All it takes is just 1 person who wants the win, and the option to !draw is out the window anyway.

All in all, a functioning !draw command is always nice, but I don't see a way of implementing it properly into a 10v1 game.

[e0e0e0e0]

How would it work?
In order for it not to be abused by builders it would have to require 100% participation and for the Titan to !draw as well, and in a case of someone who is solely out to pubstomp as Titan, they're not going to !draw just because a few people leave - they want the win.
Like @confirm-okt said, the current ID player base is so hungry for wins that they'll even resort to strategies that they themselves find boring just because it has a high winrate. All it takes is just 1 person who wants the win, and the option to !draw is out the window anyway.

All in all, a functioning !draw command is always nice, but I don't see a way of implementing it properly into a 10v1 game.

I'm confused as to why it'd require 100% participation.

If 40% of lobby (4 players), including Titan, were required to !draw, to successfully Draw the match, I doubt there'd be any problems, as the titan vote would already be a undeniable safeguard against any abuse of this implementation.
Not only that, but !draw would allow titans who play for fun, along with builders who play similarly, to end a sour match, on a neutral note.

Personally, as a player with a large amount of games played, as both titan and builder, I do not see any problem with implementing a functioning !draw command into this 10v1 game, with only a minority required to activate it.

The ENT rules for ID state:
Builders which have not yet died may not leave within the first 15 minutes, unless it has been explicitly stated by an observer that they are willing to take over your builder, or at least 3 builders have already left or become observer.
Titan may not leave within the first 15 minutes of spawning, unless Titan has picked and it has been explicitly stated by a builder that they are willing to take over titan, or at least 3 builders have already left or become observer.

These rules imply that once 3 builders have left or become observer the game has already been ruined, if 3(+) builders already hate their current game, and Titan concedes, I find there is absolutely NO reason NOT to implement a functioning !draw command that is reliant on approximately 40% of the lobby to pass a vote on it.

[FollowingPath]

@e0e0e0e0
So 4 players (and Titan) are, in your opinion, enough to decide whether stats get recorded or not? every person who didn't want to !draw because they play to win will get screwed out of potential games, that's why it needs to be 100% participation.
The leaver rules currently in place are to stop 1 person from potentially ruining the game for those that play for stats. Why would it be okay for 4 players to ruin it for those that play for stats?

The only way to prevent someone from getting screwed over by others voting for a !draw in a 10v1 is to have a full consensus.

[e0e0e0e0]

@e0e0e0e0
So 4 players (and Titan) are, in your opinion, enough to decide whether stats get recorded or not? every person who didn't want to !draw because they play to win will get screwed out of potential games, that's why it needs to be 100% participation.
The leaver rules currently in place are to stop 1 person from potentially ruining the game for those that play for stats. Why would it be okay for 4 players to ruin it for those that play for stats?

The only way to prevent someone from getting screwed over by others voting for a !draw in a 10v1 is to have a full consensus.

Yes, IMO 4 players, including Titan, are enough to decide whether stats get recorded or not. A major reason as to why a Titan will !draw is that he will have a strong start in the game, with the win leaning in his favor, yet builders will be displeased throughout the match. As a non-competitive game, in regards that this game has no ELO or any valid reason to try to any large extent to win, recording of stats should not matter, and most players will not care of their stats being recorded or not, in terms of W/L. As well, !draw command will MOST LIKELY not be used to such a large extent in which winrate percentage is affected, yet even if it does, does it matter in a non-competitive atmosphere?

Your statement implies that players care about stats such as W/L, or win rate percentage. I would suggest visiting this Island Defense Lobby Status site, status.islanddefense.cc
On this site you can quickly view the win rate percentage of players in the current waiting lobby. What you will notice is the win rate % of these players are quite low, especially in a game thats 10v1. It can only imply that these players do not care for their stats.

Ultimately, what you're suggesting is that the needs of the few, in your case 1 person, outweighs the needs of the many, in terms of stats recording. Yet, I think otherwise, and if 3 people leaving is enough to ruin a game, as implied by the ENT rules of ID, then that many people, and the Titan as well, should have the privilege to end a bad game quickly. That is why I think only 40% participation is needed to !draw.

Last notes:

You say leaver rules are in place to stop 1 person from potentially ruining game for those that play for stats?
This only affects Titan in terms of feed. I have yet to see a game where 7 people leaving in the first minute has an adverse affect on the ability of the remaining BUILDERS to win.
If leavers/desyncs were to occur, a !draw command will help greatly
It will also help greatly in ending what many people consider bad games

If people want a competitive game they can go play a ENT map that has ELO, such as DOTA or LTD.
If you want ID to be a competitive game, then you can go to the Suggestions section on this forum and suggest that, but don't say that there's people who play for stats in this game and that we should be mindful of the one guy against the 10 people who want to leave, when that is zero to none. We should put the needs of the many before the needs of the few, and this !draw command should be no exception.

[FollowingPath]

Your statement implies that players care about stats such as W/L, or win rate percentage. I would suggest visiting this Island Defense Lobby Status site, status.islanddefense.cc
On this site you can quickly view the win rate percentage of players in the current waiting lobby. What you will notice is the win rate % of these players are quite low, especially in a game thats 10v1. It can only imply that these players do not care for their stats.

If people want a competitive game they can go play a ENT map that has ELO, such as DOTA or LTD.

In the Island Defense discord you can see daily posts about titans, including yourself, complaining about builders triple/quad/penta basing so Titan can't win. We even have builders complaining about feeling "forced" to teambase in order to - you guessed it - win. Claiming that Island Defense isn't competitive just because there's no ELO is deliberately bending facts to fit your argument.

Ultimately, what you're suggesting is that the needs of the few, in your case 1 person, outweighs the needs of the many, in terms of stats recording. Yet, I think otherwise, and if 3 people leaving is enough to ruin a game, as implied by the ENT rules of ID, then that many people, and the Titan as well, should have the privilege to end a bad game quickly. That is why I think only 40% participation is needed to !draw.

You keep pushing on this point that you're in favor of fulfilling "the needs of the many instead of the needs of the one," and yet you still argue for a 40% participation rate. I'm going to go as far as actually helping you out and assume that when you say "40%" you're thinking of games that have 3 or more leavers, in which case 40% of the original lobby would be the majority of the current lobby. But what about games where only 1 or 2 people leave? Those games are still playable, and yet I wouldn't put it past some of the "regulars" who group and have 1 person from the group play Titan, to force the game into a !draw and go next, even though they would be a minority in that scenario.

You say leaver rules are in place to stop 1 person from potentially ruining game for those that play for stats?
This only affects Titan in terms of feed. I have yet to see a game where 7 people leaving in the first minute has an adverse affect on the ability of the remaining BUILDERS to win.

Then you need more stomp practice. A Titan with good game sense is guaranteed a win against the last few builders that remain after a mass leave (which most often happen because people ragequit over early minions.) Because I'm such a good guy I'll even give you a step-by-step guide, completely free of charge:

Step 1: Sell all your shit and buy MSoTG.

You're welcome.

[Kappa]

If there was a !draw command (which I again don't think would be very helpful in most cases and cause more problems than solutions):
1 - Titan must vote !draw for it to pass
2 - Observers should not be included in the vote
3 - Minion vote counts the same as Builder vote - not Titan

I'm not sure its possible from a technical aspect with how the current !draw command works. I believe !draw only looks at the number of players in game and if those players vote !draw - if enough players vote, it passes regardless of which team they are on. There is no distinction between teams and/or gamestates i.e. Titan/Builder/Minion/Observer. Meaning unless a custom !draw command was coded for ID, it would be impossible to implement a proper !draw command for the game as the current one is meant for games with even teams like LTD/Dota. I will consult with others who know more about bots than myself, but this would pose a major problem if the suggestion was to be approved. You can't simply throw the current !draw command onto the ID bot.

EDIT: After speaking to ID devs - Observers aren’t technically on the same team, they’re a separate team just allies of the builders