Copycat units -> Need rework!

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Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Hakuna » Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:25 pm

There are (at least) six units in the game which are - to varying degrees - carbon copies of a different unit. There is so much potential for greater variety and I think it is worth contemplating changes to the following units:

Dwarven Engineer < - > Meat Wagon
Same cost, same HP, same attack speed, same range.
Similar damage, similar ability.

The problem with these two is that the clear advantage goes to the engineer, on almost every category. The additional damage of the meat wagon is far, far worse than the better splash. The Fortified armor is great but neither unit is designed as the "tank" which just makes it awkward. The engineer is infinitely better because its upgrade is actually super useful all the way to the end of the game whereas the meat wagon's upgrade is basically completely unused.

I think one or the other unit should be changed completely, given a new concept. I would support leaving the engineer alone and changing the meat wagon, personally, because engineers have a stable place in the meta. As a possible suggestion for how to make meat wagons different without losing their current niche entirely, make their ability instead of splash be to cause corpses near the target to explode; igniting the fumes or something. As an alternative, less similar ability, it could cause minor knockback and slow to non-boss units, just slow to bosses.

Guardian of Death < - > Spawn of Dragon
Same attack type/armor type, exceptionally similar upgrade.
Similar ability.

Guardian of Death feels like it should be a much stronger Spawn of Dragon, given the huge cost difference, but I would actually argue it's far worse. Spawn has a definite niche as a powerhouse for waves 1-3 and 7. Guardian of Death is pretty much only respected as anti 21 and 24 with possible uses on 14 and 18 but so expensive it's very hard to obtain that early.

Instead of cleave damage, which ends up being worthless on the GoD, I suggest something more like a "doom" effect: long cooldown debuff on a single target which causes it to lose hp over time and deal less damage, which if the unit dies while under this effect spawns 2 skeletons to fight for the GoD.

The dragon upgrades both feel super similar which I don't like. I'm open to suggestions on how to make one of them feel more different from the other. The Azure is a good example of a dragon which feels significantly different. (albeit underpowered/underused af)

Frenzied Ghoul < - > Fangtooth
Same cost. Same HP. Same armor type. Exceptionally similar damage. Exceptionally similar ability.

The Frenzied Ghoul received a nice little change which made it scale, though far too little to actually become a relevant unit. Still, it's fine and well for it to have that little bit of specialness.

Other than that though, even considering Ghoul vs. Swamprunner, the two units are pretty much the exact same. I would even possibly advocate ditching the Fangtooth and just having the Defiler, but sadly I really like multiple upgrade trees, and the Defiler is complete trash. If the Defiler had like 225 range it would actually be a useful debuff for boss waves but in its current state, it along with the Gnoll Savage may as well not exist for how little they see use.

Soul of Villain < - > Blood Orc Warlock
Same ability. Same damage and armor types.
Very similar cost.

Soul of Villain should be changed entirely in my opinion. I would enjoy another unit similar to Soul of Hero but maybe along slightly different lines. Could be something like exchanging amount of attack-slow for amount of damage or attack range or something? At any rate, being the exact same as Blood Orc Warlock just seems wrong to me. A different kind of debuff would even be enough for me, just not the exact same one, please.

Neotank < - > Assault Tank
Same niche. Same damage and armor types.

Now don't yell at me. These are the least similar on the list, but still, they earn my disgust. Basically I would only build Assault Tanks if I really needed the siege damage and rerolling was not a viable option. Neotanks on the other hand do have a solid niche since their unupgraded form is ranged. Assault Tanks' ability is too awkward and bizarre, given that they are not supposed to be the front line. It should be different in my opinion, and preferably quite different to give it a different niche from Neotanks/Doomsdays. As a suggestion, Assault Tanks could have a Fervor-type ability, where continuous attacks on the same target increase in speed/damage up to a stack count cap.

Gateguard < - > Raider
Same unit. Different HP amounts.

Not much needs to be said here. This is probably the unit you were all thinking when you saw the title of this thread. I've made a suggestion in the past for how to change the Raider. At any rate I don't care how one changes or which one it is, but one should definitely change. As a suggestion, Raiders instead of having a summon could have a group-buff like Skeletors. Instead of the amount built of them increasing all their attack speed, it could increase HP or something. Could even do it like the Skeletor, where the Blood Raider is the one that provides the buff, but it provides a strong buff to other Blood Raiders and a weaker buff to Raiders. To a limit, like the Skeletors.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Pyrosha » Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:20 am

+1

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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby KiwiLeKiller » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:45 pm

Big nono! comparing engi and mw is simply retarded and shows that you didn't think further than "oh I need to spam the forums again with another useless suggestion"... try to learn the game before suggesting such things, thanks.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby broud3r » Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:23 am

Kiwi wrote:Big nono! comparing engi and mw is simply retarded and shows that you didn't think further than "oh I need to spam the forums again with another useless suggestion"... try to learn the game before suggesting such things, thanks.


Besides that i disagree with the engi/meatwagon as well this is the kind of input and passion i wish of more members of the community.

will adjust some of them after the next release.

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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Hakuna » Fri Sep 28, 2018 1:58 pm

Kiwi wrote:Big nono! comparing engi and mw is simply retarded and shows that you didn't think further than "oh I need to spam the forums again with another useless suggestion"... try to learn the game before suggesting such things, thanks.

If you're going to post a comment try and at least give constructive criticism. None of what you said contributes to the discussion. You would have accomplished just as much by saying five words: "Disagree with Engi vs MW". It would also cut down on the flaming which doesn't help you sound more correct and just makes discussion less fun.

If you're going to disagree with my conclusions, I would appreciate at least a summary of reasons that I gave that you disagree with or reasons that I missed that disprove or go contrary to what I said. If you could provide either of those things then I'd be more inclined to take you seriously.

Try and learn to be a decent human being before commenting on suggestion threads, thanks.

broud3r wrote:Besides that i disagree with the engi/meatwagon as well this is the kind of input and passion i wish of more members of the community.

will adjust some of them after the next release.


I appreciate that you take a more diplomatic approach. Not sure why kiwi appears to dislike discussing the game on the forums, but hey, he isn't forced to contribute to a discussion if he hates it so much.

As to the disagreement about engineers and meat wagons, could you explain a bit more of how you see them differently? Maybe I'm just missing something but they both seem to me to be designed as early game yolo but the engineers can get better push and have use late game as opposed to the wagons which aren't as weak on waves 4, 5 and 8 but weaker on 6 and irrelevant late game. Am I seeing something wrong?

Thanks for the reply, I'd also be interested to know what you thought of the other units I mentioned.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby KiwiLeKiller » Fri Sep 28, 2018 2:42 pm

Ok, I want to say I apologize for my first answer, I should not have said that. I'm sorry.

As for your suggestions, I really dislike most of your comparisons and I will explain it below.

Dwarven Engineer < - > Meat Wagon
When you compare units, because they have a similar ability and/or cost, you need to make sure that they are actually similar as a whole, not just on specific aspects. This brings me to your comparison between engineers and meat wagon: one may think those units are alike, but in fact they are not at all. Engineers are very good early yolo unit weak on levels 4, 5, 8, etc. while meat wagons are weak on levels 3, 5, 6, etc. This difference can be explained by their armor type, one being light and the other being fortified. This fortified armor makes it so that meat wagon are a very cheap, yet good, tanking unit when you decide to mix it.

Building full engineers is a viable build and a great yolo, but building full engineers is most likely to end in a suicide and should not be done unless your roll doesn't allow you to do anything else. For this reason, because they both do not have the same role, this comparison doesn't make any sense.

Guardian of Death < - > Spawn of Dragon
The main reason why I disagree with it is that you seem to miss the very inherent aspect of the gold cost. When a unit costs over 300 gold, you can't build it on level one, which has a huge impact on its use and on the way you play it.

For instance, when you compare spawn of dragon and guardian of death, you seem to imply that they are similar, and you even say that spawn of dragon is better, which is far from being true. Here are their stats:
    Spawn:
    1360 hp
    1.5 attack speed
    141-159 damage
    94-106 dps
    Guardian of death:
    1550 hp
    1.2 attack speed
    121-143 damage
    101-119 dps
First off, Guardian of death is much better than spawn of dragon on many levels like 7, 8, 12, 14, etc. And probably even in the early levels depending on what it's mixed with. Also, as explained sooner, the gold difference between the two units makes it so that, for example, you will never see a player build 2 guardians of death for level 3, when it's possible to see it for spawn of dragon. For those reasons, those two units are very different in my mind. It is the same for their respective upgrades, one is cheaper and weaker, the other one is more expensive but so much better.

Frenzied Ghoul < - > Fangtooth
This comparison I won't discuss. It is point less, in my opinion, since hatchling is almost never used otherwise than to be a blocker, delay, or just to add a bit of value to try to hold some more.

Soul of Villain < - > Blood Orc Warlock
Those units are also different one another. Even though their abilities are similar and their dps is also similar, their range is not the same. Let me explain. Orc warlock and blood orc warlock have 350 range, while soul of villain has 400 range. This difference may not seem major, but it is.
> How many times did one build warlock for 10 with another unit, machine turrets for instance, and that the warlock gets killed first? I would say majority of the times.
> How many times did someone build a soul of villain for 10 with another unit, machine turrets for instance, and that the soul of villain gets killed first? I would say almost never.

The small 50 difference in range they have is enough for the warlock to run in front of most ranged units, but makes it so that the soul of villain, even though he may move a bit, will most likely stop before getting in first line and before getting in a situation where he gets killed first.

Neotank < - > Assault Tank
This comparison also makes no sense to me. In first hand, neotank is mainly build for 17, 22, 28, etc. because it is a great siege unit, just like assault tank and doomsday machine. On the other hand, steamroller is a melee unit which is a very very good tank for most back-line dps, like spiders, hellraisers, etc. They are not used in the same situations and are all very good units.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Hakuna » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:39 pm

I really appreciate you apologizing and taking the time to give a full feedback. It means a lot to me and changes my perspective on the type of person you are entirely. So thank you.

Kiwi wrote:Dwarven Engineer < - > Meat Wagon
When you compare units, because they have a similar ability and/or cost, you need to make sure that they are actually similar as a whole, not just on specific aspects. This brings me to your comparison between engineers and meat wagon: one may think those units are alike, but in fact they are not at all. Engineers are very good early yolo unit weak on levels 4, 5, 8, etc. while meat wagons are weak on levels 3, 5, 6, etc. This difference can be explained by their armor type, one being light and the other being fortified. This fortified armor makes it so that meat wagon are a very cheap, yet good, tanking unit when you decide to mix it.

Building full engineers is a viable build and a great yolo, but building full engineers is most likely to end in a suicide and should not be done unless your roll doesn't allow you to do anything else. For this reason, because they both do not have the same role, this comparison doesn't make any sense.


I disagree that it is necessary to compare the unit as a whole instead of only similar aspects. The point of this thread is to discuss similarities and how they might be tweaked to provide more variety and contrast.

You are exaggerating greatly to say the two units are not at all similar.

Meat Wagons are also an early-game YOLO unit, unless you care to explain otherwise. I know of no mid or late game build that utilizes them.

The point is, Engi are a better unit but a meat wagon is just like a worse version but same cost. I won't go so far as to say the exact same unit the way gateguard and raider are but still similar enough they have many of the same strengths and weaknesses.

Kiwi wrote:Guardian of Death < - > Spawn of Dragon
The main reason why I disagree with it is that you seem to miss the very inherent aspect of the gold cost. When a unit costs over 300 gold, you can't build it on level one, which has a huge impact on its use and on the way you play it.

For instance, when you compare spawn of dragon and guardian of death, you seem to imply that they are similar, and you even say that spawn of dragon is better, which is far from being true. Here are their stats:
    Spawn:
    1360 hp
    1.5 attack speed
    141-159 damage
    94-106 dps
    Guardian of death:
    1550 hp
    1.2 attack speed
    121-143 damage
    101-119 dps
First off, Guardian of death is much better than spawn of dragon on many levels like 7, 8, 12, 14, etc. And probably even in the early levels depending on what it's mixed with. Also, as explained sooner, the gold difference between the two units makes it so that, for example, you will never see a player build 2 guardians of death for level 3, when it's possible to see it for spawn of dragon. For those reasons, those two units are very different in my mind. It is the same for their respective upgrades, one is cheaper and weaker, the other one is more expensive but so much better.


I agree that the gold cost being over 300 is a big difference. This in fact is something that to me makes many T6 units far, far less useful overall due to the lengths you need to go in order to obtain them in a timely manner. Doubly so in 1200+ where you can't get as much feed from your lane partner.

While I can accept GoD may perform better on waves like 7, 8, 12 and 14, the difficulty in obtaining them in time basically makes this irrelevant information. Whereas the build to get 4 Spawns on 7 is stable and very strong, to get even 3 GoD would require extremely careful planning and no random sends and possibly underpushing or having just the perfect unit to help you tier up. As such, it is far less versatile and therefore not as useful.

All that being said, the core concepts of the two units are the exact same. All I'm saying is make one of the two of them feel new, special, unique. Instead, they are basically just the same unit but at different prices.

Kiwi wrote:Frenzied Ghoul < - > Fangtooth
This comparison I won't discuss. It is point less, in my opinion, since hatchling is almost never used otherwise than to be a blocker, delay, or just to add a bit of value to try to hold some more.


Neither of them are relevant but that's the main reason why I suggest changes, to breathe new life into the game.

Kiwi wrote:Soul of Villain < - > Blood Orc Warlock
Those units are also different one another. Even though their abilities are similar and their dps is also similar, their range is not the same. Let me explain. Orc warlock and blood orc warlock have 350 range, while soul of villain has 400 range. This difference may not seem major, but it is.
> How many times did one build warlock for 10 with another unit, machine turrets for instance, and that the warlock gets killed first? I would say majority of the times.
> How many times did someone build a soul of villain for 10 with another unit, machine turrets for instance, and that the soul of villain gets killed first? I would say almost never.

The small 50 difference in range they have is enough for the warlock to run in front of most ranged units, but makes it so that the soul of villain, even though he may move a bit, will most likely stop before getting in first line and before getting in a situation where he gets killed first.


Interesting analysis. I would still say it's worth changing one or the other to make them more different but I never knew about that little difference and how it could affect things.

Kiwi wrote:Neotank < - > Assault Tank
This comparison also makes no sense to me. In first hand, neotank is mainly build for 17, 22, 28, etc. because it is a great siege unit, just like assault tank and doomsday machine. On the other hand, steamroller is a melee unit which is a very very good tank for most back-line dps, like spiders, hellraisers, etc. They are not used in the same situations and are all very good units.


I can understand why you say that but notice I didn't say steamroller vs neotank. Steam is indeed a different bag of tricks. It is just the Assault Tank that is overly similar in purpose to the neo. Steamroller can stay how it is and maybe assault should be changed into being a melee unit too instead, idk. At any rate, my point still stands that neo and AT are too similar to me.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby KiwiLeKiller » Fri Sep 28, 2018 7:48 pm

Hakuna wrote:Meat Wagons are also an early-game YOLO unit, unless you care to explain otherwise. I know of no mid or late game build that utilizes them.

The only way you can yolo meat wagon is by mixing it with meat wagon, else it's just suicide.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Hakuna » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:20 pm

Kiwi wrote:
Hakuna wrote:Meat Wagons are also an early-game YOLO unit, unless you care to explain otherwise. I know of no mid or late game build that utilizes them.

The only way you can yolo meat wagon is by mixing it with meat wagon, else it's just suicide.

I guess I haven't played enough 1200+ to have a clear distinction in my head between YOLO and suicide. In Mega they are both the same thing.

If I had to guess I would say that YOLO in 1200+ means hard push early with intention to leak on send waves and weak waves for your build but hold enough that you recover and have some value to keep holding mid and maybe full recover to be holder late with enough income,

whereas

Suicide means you give up ever trying to recover and push with everything you got up to a certain point where everything you build is just to make your lane leak slower but can never hold.

It's not a strong distinction to me but anyway I guess the meta in 1200+ is nitpicky like that.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby KiwiLeKiller » Fri Sep 28, 2018 8:22 pm

Hakuna wrote:If I had to guess I would say that YOLO in 1200+ means hard push early with intention to leak on send waves and weak waves for your build but hold enough that you recover and have some value to keep holding mid and maybe full recover to be holder late with enough income,

Suicide means you give up ever trying to recover and push with everything you got up to a certain point where everything you build is just to make your lane leak slower but can never hold.

That's about right.
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby epicdeath » Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:19 am

I agree with kiwi with regards to the wagon/engineer change, the similarities between the units are splash and a weakness on flying waves (due to splash) besides that they're very different units with different results when build as a main yolo or as an add/mix. (e.g. mixing meatwagon with sth like magna, greymane or windrider is much better than mixing engi). This is because wagons are much stronger on 4, letting you still push well and are better tanks on 5. However they pay for this on level 6)

I reckon you cant call GOD being stronger on 7,8,12,14 irrelevant just because they are difficult to get. I agree that GOD holder (feeder start 3-4 god for 7) is both rare and weak, however, I reckon god performs best on 7 with just one of them. Placed infront and on the wall the satyrs tend to clog around it, allowing for a lot of value from its ability (which has a different and imo much better aoe than spawn). Its also relevant for 8. If you have a semi/freehold build with something like 2 clocks, greymane, god you'll hold 8, allowing you to push after 7 instead of having to stay low still. Its also much better than spawn on 12 and 14, if you're building for these levels with GOD you wont think it's irrelevant ;) .

I also reckon assault tank was more useful before the clockwerk change. Now, since assault tank is pretty much exclusively a 20+ unit (mass steams preferable for 17), the clockwerk that pops out after 20 will pretty much die immediately with the repair ability being basically irrelevant. Before the change the clock would use its cluster rockets pretty much as soon as it spawned which was great since a short aoe stun is pretty helpful lategame.

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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby blazeitup » Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:44 pm

I stopped reading after this; "Guardian of Death feels like it should be a much stronger Spawn of Dragon, given the huge cost difference, but I would actually argue it's far worse." There is no level in the game after lvl 7 where SoD even come close to GoD, both normal and upgraded. You obviously are trolling or havent even played with gods.


Edit: Go try debug mode and tell me what level you find sod being better then god (after lvl 7), both normal or upgraded.

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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Qvist » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:20 am

They equally bad/good post 10 - both are decent frontline tanks.
Never usefull to upgrade them so the point of them are just to be meat frontliners.

Reasons for them to not be top tier units is none of them are good on a specific level so if you roll them you decide if its worth to mass them infront of your dmg output units.


For example in cross they very good tanks because they die and tank before every other unit.

In an undervalued solo lane you never hold a demon with either of those units so if possible try not to build them.

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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby Hakuna » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:33 pm

Qvist wrote:Never usefull to upgrade them so the point of them are just to be meat frontliners.


Just to be clear; you only consider Guardians of Death worth building as meat shields, but the Death Dragon upgrade is not worth it under any circumstances?
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Re: Copycat units -> Need rework!

Postby gloom » Mon Oct 01, 2018 11:59 pm

While these units are pretty similar in a lot of cases, i don't think it's necessarily something bad. Given the only played mods involve random units, having different units serving the same purpose probably leads to more balanced games. This may actually be the path to balancing completely useless units (or almost useless): correcting their stats/abilities towards currently played units, in order for them finding some place in the current meta.


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