The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

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RiziY
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The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby RiziY » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:06 am

Quick Summary of the Situation: VincentVow did not cooperate with his team despite them asking him multiple times. They attempted to votekick twice but I did not votekick him until I saw the truth of his violations at level 10 Arena. Vincent reported us all for improper votekicking and we were banned.

Original Ban Request make by Vincent:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=116491&p=454767&hilit=riziy#p454767
WIthin the above link, Vincentvow states that he was vote kicked without legitimate reason and that all who agreed to the kick are offenders.

My Appeal to the Ban:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=116816
I state the following rules:
1. Refusing to cooperate when asked to do so several times by sending alone and not save-send with teammates to win. (LTD Specific Game Rule located here: http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?title=EntGaming:LTDRules)
2. You are obligated to !votekick any player that has broken any of ENT's rules. If someone or several indicate that a particular player is game ruining, you, as a player in the game, are obligated to question/check about the situation/claim. (Votekick Rule located here:http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?title=EntGaming:VKRules


I provide evidence of Vincent's actions in my appeal post as well as my newly posted Ban Request for VincentVow (viewtopic.php?f=8&t=116829)

Before closing my appeal, Av1on's last reply is the following:
"You are here to appeal your ban, not turn this against the person you votekicked. If you feel so highly of such, we have a ban request section specifically made for this type of argument. However, when you are in the appeals you cooperate when moderators give instructions.

That said, and since you've failed to acknowledge your wrongdoings, we are done here."

He states that I did not cooperate with his instructions which were given earlier:
"Please head over to the votekick section of our rules (There is a re-direct in the general rules), read them and paste them here following your 2 prior links so I know such has been done. When doing this, I expect you'll know now what you have done wrong."

I followed his instructions by posting the following:

"I'm only here to argue for constructive purposes. Votekick rules state that a votekick is warranted if the following is true:
Do not abuse !votekick: its only purpose is to kick game ruinners who violate ENT's rules and negatively impact the game for either or both teams in the game.

ENT's Rule: Refusing to cooperate when asked to do so several times by sending alone and not save-send with teammates to win.

Vincents violations:
1. 4/1 throughout levels 7-8 despite being asked earlier multiple times.
2. 5/1 at 10
3. 7/3 after arena despite being asked again
4. Build kingclaws when asked to build more effective units for the circumstance
5. Send BO in ARENA when team had other strategy

Vincent made that game an easy win for me despite that two players on the other team were more experienced than me. He was neither a holder nor a pusher throughout that game.

I understand and have read the rules but I still believe that I was unfairly banned and that Vincent should be banned.

http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?tit ... ng:VKRules"


I cannot understand why I am still banned when ENT's rules clearly state "You are obligated to !votekick any player that has broken any of ENT's rules. If someone or several indicate that a particular player is game ruining, you, as a player in the game, are obligated to question/check about the situation/claim."
Last edited by RiziY on Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby RiziY » Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:16 am

It seems that Kreutertee agrees with me aswell. Refer to Original Ban Request make by Vincent:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=116491&p=454767&hilit=riziy#p454767

by Kreutertee » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:13 pm

What you left out is the fact you were saving gold for no reason. Neither push, nor build, which would qualify as grieving/trolling. It appears the votekick attempts were legit and you probably can be glad not being reported yourself.

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Re: The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby Merex » Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:55 am

Your entire argument is solely based on something that can be said in a BRQ topic. When appealing to ENT, it should be clear that you are trying appeal a ban and that's what I didn't see. While by technicality you did paste the rules, and it's as I said, you were defensive and wouldn't acknowledge your wrongdoings. Since you have made your way to the complaint section, I will provide more insight that evidently wasn't clear enough in the appeal itself.

Av1oN wrote:Your argument is something you couldn't have known in-game aside from a brief glance at his units on the arena battle and we at ENT do not ban people for choosing to build what they build unless they do such maliciously. (As in, state in anyway they're going to throw which I didn't see from the chat, just childish fighting.)

Which is in response to;

RiziY wrote:At level 10 I noticed he was building king claw just to troll even though he had Nightmare and other great units. He was CLEARLY a troll. 4 kingclaw at level 10 when he has nightmare. Also 7/3 at end of arena in a very slow game when everyone else was 7/6. In addition, he sent BO in arena against the team's strategy.
[...]
I gave him two opportunities to redeem himself in game and play with team but he refused. He refused to push with team and build good units.

Meaning, your argument was after-the-fact, and during the game (as stated), you were going off a glance at his lumber and some units. Following that, some brief vague/unconvincing reasoning from the east. Point being, the votekick function should be taken seriously and used with proper reasoning. The first votekick is the only slightly justified one given the pushing situation which was approached wrongly to start with and no proper reason behind it.

Also stated the above in the appeal itself;
Av1oN wrote:The communication barrier in which the votekicks were initiated was nonexistent, that in itself is enough of a reason to ban since here at ENT, the !votekick function should only be used in a serious situation and explained. The fact you were initiating a votekick as an opposing player and said nothing during the process, following a lack of reason given to you when you had asked, doesn't help your case one bit.

Meaning that your votekick reasoning was essentially going off a "lol". The main point of your ban is that when initiating a votekick especially being an outside party to the situation, it's your duty to be certain that the person-in-question is indeed ruining. He wasn't. He pushed on 10 during arena and continued to build beforehand which doesn't prove to me that he was throwing. I won't have votekicks started and passed especially because you believe he built bad units.

Next in the appeal comes the cooperation part in which you're also fighting -

Av1oN wrote:Please head over to the votekick section [...]
When doing this, I expect you'll know now what you have done wrong.

RiziY wrote:I understand and have read the rules but I still believe that I was unfairly banned and that Vincent should be banned.

A major part of an appeal process is that you understand the violation in which you've been banned by is acknowledged and reflected on so that we can ensure the same situation doesn't occur and since you've put little in your appeal and only focused on the person whom reported you, I was and still do believe that you didn't come to appeal but to argue. Hence I denied it instead of fighting a case that was little to relevant to your appeal.

To finalize, you started with an aggressive approach, continued to fight a case against the person whom you kicked and failed to follow part of my instructions. Pasting rules and understanding them doesn't help yourself when you attempt to use them against moderators on a ban appeal. The cooperation part is essential for potential reduction/approval and following that, as I again stated, is acknowledgement.
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Re: The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby RiziY » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:16 pm

Could I get an opinion from someone who understands the game better. Clearly Av1on does not understand the rule of refusing to cooperate and the obligation stated in the rule to votekick such player. My reason for kicking was based on multiple occurrences in the game. I was the 3rd person to make a votekick against Vincent.

Av1on, let me make it clear for you:
VK RULE: You are obligated to !votekick any player that has broken any of ENT's rules. If someone or several indicate that a particular player is game ruining, you, as a player in the game, are obligated to question/check about the situation/claim. (Votekick Rule located

LTD SPECIFIC ENT RULE: Refusing to cooperate when asked to do so several times by sending alone and not save-send with teammates to win.

Refer to chat during rounds 1-10:
TEAM TELLING VINCENT TO PUSH
(10:14 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: yellow
(10:15 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: push
(10:16 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: pls
(10:18 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: !lms vin
(10:36 / Allied) Vincentow: stats me
(10:45 / Allied) Vincentow: !stats elo
(10:50 / Allied) ggizi: yeah they are fucked on 7
(10:53 / All) skillmatic: Player [skillmatic]'s forfeit vote has been recalled automatically (three minutes have elapsed).
(10:55 / Allied) Vincentow: !stats
(11:24 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: why u won't push man?
(11:27 / Allied) ggizi: go 6-1 yellow wtf
(11:27 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: 4/1
(11:37 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: lol

FIRST VOTEKICK ATTEMPT:
(11:42 / All) RIZiY: Why?
(11:43 / Allied) skillmatic: !yes
(11:43 / All) skillmatic: Player [skillmatic] voted to kick player [Vincentow]. 3 more votes are needed to pass.
(11:46 / All) ggizi: trolling
(11:55 / All) Vincentow: no reason
(11:59 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: go send
(11:59 / All) Vincentow: i'm playing so good
(12:04 / All) Vincentow: they dont hold 7
(12:08 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: lol
(12:18 / Allied) RIZiY: send furb herm
(12:18 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: im holder 7
(12:19 / Allied) RIZiY: bo
(12:22 / All) Vincentow: yes its a troll votekick
(12:23 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: u stupid
(12:29 / All) skillmatic: ANNOUNCEMENT: Get ready for the Hell Cup #2 July Tournament! entgaming.net
(12:33 / Allied) skillmatic: we should just kick
(12:34 / Allied) Vincentow: i will punch u on ur face
(12:35 / Allied) skillmatic: make it even
(12:37 / All) skillmatic: A votekick against player [Vincentow] has expired.

HE STILL DOESNT PUSH!

(16:01 / Allied) ggizi: what a classic retard with 4-1 :D

SECOND VOTEKICK. HE STILL DOESNT PUSH!
(16:27 / All) skillmatic: A votekick against player [Vincentow] has been started by player [ggizi]. 4 votes are needed within 60 seconds to pass.
(16:27 / All) skillmatic: Type !yes to vote.
(16:27 / All) skillmatic: ** Note: !votekick should only be used to kick players breaking a rule. You should not votekick players new to the game!
(16:32 / Allied) Vincentow: ok i ban u
(16:34 / All) ggizi: not pushing or building with 300 gold
(16:36 / All) Vincentow: he will be ban
(16:52 / Allied) skillmatic: !yes
(16:52 / All) skillmatic: Player [skillmatic] voted to kick player [Vincentow]. 3 more votes are needed to pass.
(17:00 / Allied) ggizi: just kick this shit
(17:08 / Allied) orion: stop
(17:13 / Allied) ggizi: stop what?
(17:13 / All) RIZiY: Give reason yo
(17:14 / Allied) Vincentow: u are the master piece of shit
(17:15 / All) orion: srly
(17:16 / Allied) ggizi: kick him or i'm afk
(17:21 / All) orion: no plz
(17:23 / All) Vincentow: stupid as fuck
(17:23 / All) orion: stop
(17:26 / All) orion: pink rage
(17:27 / Allied) ggizi: not going over 10th wave with 4/1 shit


VINCENT SENDS BLOOD ORC INTO ARENA

(20:58 / Allied) ggizi: nice bo for arena yellow :D

THIS IS WHERE I NOTICE HIS PLAY AFTER ARENA AND PIECE TOGETHER THE POOR HOLDING, AND POOR SENDS AGAINST US:
(22:35 / All) RIZiY: how is yell 7/3 lol
(22:37 / All) RIZiY: garbage units?
(22:47 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: -rolls
(23:02 / All) RIZiY: oh
(23:04 / All) RIZiY: he trolls
(23:16 / All) RIZiY: or garbage unit
(23:24 / All) ELO_HunTer: nm
(23:31 / Allied) ELO_HunTer: !scores
(23:32 / All) RIZiY: he has nm?
(23:35 / All) ELO_HunTer: y
(23:35 / All) ggizi: best bo in arena ever ;D
(23:37 / All) RIZiY: lol
(23:41 / All) RIZiY: !votekick vincent

I GAVE HIM 3 CHANCES. 3. HE CONTINUED TO BREAK ENTS RULES!!!

I did not abuse the votekick function. Learn the fucking game before you judge, Av1on. Go play Hellhalt.

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Re: The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby aRt)Y » Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:57 am

While users get this platform to openly discuss processed ban requests and appeals, it must not be used to insult ENT's staff.
You should phrase your future posts carefully, otherwise, I am inclined to reject it.

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Re: The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby Jabba41 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:28 pm

First my review:

Yellow didnt played good, thats for sure.
When beeing asked to push he just build instead of pushing even though he pushed 1 wisp each level before.

-> first vk was initiated which wasnt legit. Didnt pass, all cool.


(11:59 / All) Vincentow: i'm playing so good
(12:04 / All) Vincentow: they dont hold 7

-> ghosting


(12:34 / Allied) Vincentow: i will punch u on ur face
(12:39 / Allied) Vincentow: if u was next to me
(12:49 / Allied) Vincentow: motherfucker
(13:04 / Allied) Vincentow: i have more exp than u
(13:07 / Allied) Vincentow: double games i have
(13:09 / Allied) Vincentow: stfu

-> he started to flame for no reason

(16:27 / Allied) ggizi: !votekick VInce

-> 2nd votekick was started after he saved around 300+ gold on 8, he held only because he was lucky and had good focus. On send he would have leaked 15+ for sure.

+++ At this point its already ok to assume hes trolling, but not for the enemies +++

-> refused to push during that time and just build as much as he could with nightmare and bottomfeeders.


-> Missed send on 10 which lead to a send for arena, but afterall he didnt full send aswell so he simply refused because he was too much concentrated to chat. Which is his fault.


(18:42 / All) Vincentow: he is trolling
(18:48 / All) Vincentow: all of us
(19:09 / All) Vincentow: 7/5 lumb with 201 score
(19:13 / All) Vincentow: he crooss with green
(19:19 / All) Vincentow: 0 value
(19:24 / All) Vincentow: 107 inc
(20:16 / All) Vincentow: he is so noob
(20:21 / All) Vincentow: omg
(22:10 / All) Vincentow: pink will loose this game

-> ghosting again during 9, before 10.
--> After enemy sees whats up on the enemys side on 10 they knew he was trash talking.


Then he got kicked shortly after the enemies saw his build/income/lumber.


tl;dr: Votekick was rightful.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Av1on He wasnt cooperating + from his chat and his actions its clear he was trolling.
The enemy team waited until they were aware of the whole situation. Thats exactly how we want players to act if they have doubts. In this case it was hard to tell for the enemies.
But by level 10/arena it was kinda clear and/or in favor of voting !yes. And anyway... and voting on a votekick on a legit votekick is never a reason to ban, even if the voter doesnt have proofs,
we as people who review it can never get everything that makes someone vote !yes. For example i trust some players that i've met a hundred times and vote !yes if they tell me someone refuses for example, keep this in mind in the futue.
As long as the votekick wasnt abusive it dosnt matter.

@riziy You handled the situation quite good, keep this up. Mistakes happen, on players site and sometimes on ENTs side too, hope you understand this.



tl;dr ban wasnt right, no abusive intentions though. @art)y @hazardous
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Re: The rules speak for themselves-I believe I was unfairly banned

Postby HazarDous » Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:14 pm

I see.

Votekicking rule is one of the hardest to respect given you never really have all of the information necessary to make a decision, and neither do you have that much time to investigate during a game. Most times, you will have to rely on other team's word even though it might be meant to deceive you into voting illegally.

Based on Jabba's review, it seems like you have acted properly within the information you had access to. While this seem to be somewhat of a gray area sort of case, I nonetheless approve the complaint.

@Av1oN , few things off. Whenever it is hard to judge whether one is ruining the game or not, then you must assume that it is equally hard, if not harder, for those who are playing the game. If they assess that one is trolling/game ruining, and they have valid arguments to make that claim, then they shall not be banned for votekicking said player. In such case, ENT will merely not take actions against the "troll" should he be reported on forums afterward and you deem his actions not to be ban-able.

Moreover, and as we discussed privately, be more open minded when dealing with appeals. Appeals are not meant for users to merely apologize and get unbanned. They may also challenge moderators' decisions and judgements.


Thanks for your complaint @RiziY . I'm sure you understand mistakes do happen, though, so no actions will be taken against Av1oN.

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