coco ban

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coco ban

Postby TimmyTheTauren » Wed Apr 11, 2018 9:06 pm

I was told to repost my complaint that was originally denied if the appeal process didn't work out. Note that I am posting this because it took 2-3 hours just to teach coco to ban appeal and having him post the complaint would be extremely difficult.

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=126833

Denial Reasoning:
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"Reason: The reported message does not fit into any other category, please use the further information field. Hi, We usually do not approve complaints on behalf of someone else. However, since he cannot defend himself, we might make an exception. For now, though, stick to the first resort; ban appeals. He's posted an appeal atm, and he will have a second opinion. If you still disagree with the decision, you can argue it there or post a new complaint with necessary evidence/links, and it will be re-evaluated. Thanks."


Original complaint:
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User dsfgrrw/coco was banned for maphacking. The first issue here is that the guy doesn't maphack. He was wrongfully banned. An issue stemming from this is his inability to defend himself. He is unable to effectively communicate in English. He only knows a few English words and certainly not enough to form any sentence structure. Not only does the guy have no idea what he did wrong, he has no idea how to fix what he didn't do wrong. Given this situation, the only option he knows is to dodge the ban. There is no malice in doing so. The guy simply wants to play. He plays often and he plays to win. He doesn't troll or flame. He minds his own business and follows the rules. The only other instance of him being banned was for tk which I also think was an invalid ban. In that scenario he was just helping win the game. Neither of the appeals for his bans were made by him. Do not discount any "good faith" in unbanning him as he never knew to come here to appeal in the first place. Let the guy play. If you do get more *real* evidence of him maphacking. Ban him again. I don't think you'll find it.


My main point: The maphack ban should not have processed before it was reviewed by another mod. Has any admin actually confirmed Av1oN's maphack ban?

Coco would never have been banned for dodging if proper protocol was used in the first place. I can agree with going ahead and banning before approval if there was a fogclick, but all of the evidence given was circumstantial. A player should not be banned for such a length of time unless there is 100% proof of maphack.

Why is coco still being banned when the original ban request is still in Awaiting Confirmation?

It is also important to note the English bit in his ban appeal was not written by coco, but an inclusion by ParkMinYoung. Who, by the way, I thank for taking the time to attempt the translation and help coco write his ban appeal. As such, coco was not aware his appeal said he would not continue to play until it was resolved. My best guess is that coco continued to play as he expected he cleared his name to keep playing. He might also think that there is no reason for him not to play as the offense he was banned for he knows he did not commit.

By doing this he did not show "he is above the system and can do whatever he wants" but just that he wanted to play the game that he has been playing frequently for quite some time. Just a normal day for coco.

Please stop taking advantage of a player who cannot effectively defend himself. He didn't do anything wrong in the first place and now the staff is using his non-malicious dodging to solidify a ban that shouldn't go through in the first place.
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Re: coco ban

Postby HazarDous » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:09 am

TimmyTheTauren wrote:Coco would never have been banned for dodging if proper protocol was used in the first place. I can agree with going ahead and banning before approval if there was a fogclick, but all of the evidence given was circumstantial. A player should not be banned for such a length of time unless there is 100% proof of maphack.


That's our policy. The confirmation process is a safeguard, not an additional burden on the actual ban process.

TimmyTheTauren wrote:Why is coco still being banned when the original ban request is still in Awaiting Confirmation?


Because he has dodged multiple times. Whether or not the MH ban was valid to begin with has nothing to do with coco's decision to dodge our bans, notably after apologizing on his appeal and swearing not to do it again.


Due to that decision, we cannot simply turn a blind eye to the prior dodging offences if coco is found not to be a maphacker.


I will grant him a second opinion on the maphack case nonetheless. You will have to bring coco to explain himself on this very thread before any judgement is rendered with regards to a potential ban length reduction.


@Ben_T @Haunt @Burn @Hash @Kappa1 @aRt)Y

Second opinion on original ban request, thanks.
viewtopic.php?t=126771

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Re: coco ban

Postby Kappa » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:24 am

I will review the maphack request as I know many other mods are not able to anymore. However, I would like to point out that coco has dodged 7 times since his original ban. 4 of these were after his appeal where he promised to stop dodging.

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Re: coco ban

Postby Merex » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:29 am

TimmyTheTauren wrote:My main point: The maphack ban should not have processed before it was reviewed by another mod. Has any admin actually confirmed Av1oN's maphack ban?

Coco would never have been banned for dodging if proper protocol was used in the first place. I can agree with going ahead and banning before approval if there was a fogclick, but all of the evidence given was circumstantial. A player should not be banned for such a length of time unless there is 100% proof of maphack.

Why is coco still being banned when the original ban request is still in Awaiting Confirmation?

As HazarDous said, it is indeed a safeguard. To be more specific - The ban is to be enforced immediately, the confirmation part is what comes after to both check for dodge/confirm said maphack case. If such user is however dodging during the confirmation phase, they are processed and to be enforced accordingly for such.

I'm not sure how you're familiar with our protocol given you're not moderator, I'm actually almost certain that you know nothing of it. While I know you're rather upset to see what I'm assuming is a "friend" of yours or a person-of-interest fall to these ban lengths, you should tread more carefully in your wording when trying to defend them.


TimmyTheTauren wrote:It is also important to note the English bit in his ban appeal was not written by coco, but an inclusion by ParkMinYoung. Who, by the way, I thank for taking the time to attempt the translation and help coco write his ban appeal. As such, coco was not aware his appeal said he would not continue to play until it was resolved.

The appeal(s) that were done were for the most part done by others, with the exception to the last one being done by coco himself (with assistance) however if you're to tell me it wasn't him appealing in english - The ban appeal was voided from that point on. Important to note here -
Forum Rules wrote:All posts on this forum must be in English (other languages can be used in private messages).

Following that, we don't allow others to appeal on behalf of another person. The appeal only stood as long as it did due to the continuous "outrage" over said ban. However, according to yes, our protocol, the ban appeal should've been denied and yet we kept it open up until more dodging came to light.

Now to move on with your later response(s) -
TimmyTheTauren wrote:My best guess is that coco continued to play as he expected he cleared his name to keep playing. He might also think that there is no reason for him not to play as the offense he was banned for he knows he did not commit.
[...]
By doing this he did not show "he is above the system and can do whatever he wants" but just that he wanted to play the game that he has been playing frequently for quite some time. Just a normal day for coco.

I'm sorry but I have to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Coco for the most part played under 2 accounts (both 100+) so using "aliases/smurfs" wasn't actually a commonality for him and suddenly when he's unable to join - He not only ignored the ban message right infront of him, but also changed his IP address and made an entirely new smurf to continue playing on ENT.
(Note: If he couldn't understand the message, he could've easily asked for help since he plays on USEast battle.net, used google translate, make any attempt like everyone else whom doesn't dodge and make an effort to try and figure out why suddenly his main account and his secondary were both banned.)
How are you to tell me that he's unaware of his actions? I wasn't aware you are coco or conveniently know what's going through his mind? What you describe in these messages are most likely what goes through a dodgers mind when they first see they are banned. To play again, and he did every step necessary to assure that and it goes directly against ENT's rules and guidelines and is considered the highest offense that can be done by an individual.

TimmyTheTauren wrote:Please stop taking advantage of a player who cannot effectively defend himself. He didn't do anything wrong in the first place and now the staff is using his non-malicious dodging to solidify a ban that shouldn't go through in the first place.

He's every right to make an effort and defend for himself. We even have korean staff members he could reach out to with extended assistance and translation if needed. How can the staff take advantage of someone who blatantly goes against our entire rule system and commits the capital offense of ENT? If anything we've made extended amounts of efforts and even went out of our way to try and hear out coco and his side of the story but honestly that's looking more and more pointless given he's still dodging as of hours ago. We can't help those who don't want to be helped.

Again, the amount of suppot he has by the community is noticeable but it's both unnecessary and creating complications now. This entire complaint is based off someone other than yourself and none of the reasons you've mentioned are even close to being valid enough to warrant any ban reduction with the most notable one being he's dodging rather than coming to comment here and "Defend himself".

To make it simple - He's dodged, he's defied our rules. If someone can commit that hard to wanting to ignore our rules and deem whether or not he wants to banned is simply wrong. His maphack review will be commented on as HazarDous mentioned but that still remains as the bigger issue here. Again, I understand you're upset over losing a "friend" but that's no reason to come here and blatantly say moderators don't follow our own protocol and are "abusing" players because that simply isn't true.

Also to note - I've spoken with @Kappa and he's informed me (also because he's still on 1.28) that he will get around to reviewing the maphack sometime tomorrow when he is available.
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Re: coco ban

Postby ParkMinYoung » Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:29 am

@hazardous I would like to apologize about the ban appeal, I made up something for coco to write because he know's no English. All the English in his appeal including the subject, reason for ban, even his realm and username was what he copied word for word from me. They were not his words, the Korean is all him though so you can either use my translation or ask a trusted Korean member. In his screenshots when he talks to me he explains his dodge reason ( he did it because he couldn't communicate with ent) but in his appeal he did not address it, so I think I failed to communicate with both him and the admins regarding that. If Coco is given another chance, I'll try to talk to him if I see him.

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Re: coco ban

Postby TimmyTheTauren » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:11 am

I'm not arguing I know ENT's protocol better than you. I do trust you follow your protocol. And perhaps that is what is causing so many complications in this case. There should be considerations taken for extreme cases of language barriers. It is very difficult to amend scenarios such as this while sticking to rules such as someone else can't help prove your innocence and banning before confirming the maphack. I am arguing that a speculative maphack case should not incur a ban until maphack confirmation is attained.

What's more important is that these two games are now the only games that will be considered in the ultimate decision of whether or not coco maphacks. As well as the final decision being made by solely one other admin who is potentially partial to the case. (Been actively banning coco accounts by presumably staring at the admin tools page)

Check all my titan games. There are absolutely instances where one might think I maphack. I have certainly rushed lumber bases and seeds with no evidence of anything being there. I've had games where I hit almost every single pearl. I've had games where I windwalk at the perfect time retreating from mound to evade a windwalked titan. Then check some more and you will see that I have titan games where I miss many early pearls and die middle to experienced builders. There will be games where I die middle to wind walk. You can't base speculated maphack evidence off so few series of plays. When you play so many times, you will experience anomalies. And what seems like an anomaly becomes even more common when your skill level scales as high as coco's.

People are so quick to jump to the conclusion of maphack when a skilled titan plays. Skilled titans are skilled not only because they are good using wotw or ward block, have good micro and can siege, are quick to punish and know the best items to get. They also have developed a sense of which builders go to which lumber bases, what bases and seeds are most commonly used, general map movement and golding patterns among other instincts that develop over playing so often. Even instances of pure luck and chance will occur like popping straight into a builder, fruit feed, etc.

You cannot accurately base a one year ban on a player from the speculative instances in just two games.
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Re: coco ban

Postby BeerLord » Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:59 am

I dislike the term "speculative maphack case", since your use of it comes with the implication that we dont really know, arent really sure, or arent really seriously interested in "proving it". Fog clicks are nice when we find them, but seasoned maphackers rarely make such mistakes anymore. I will tell you that the vast majority of maphack cases that I have been responsible for have required meticulous attention to game movements, often involving studying multiple games of said player, and frequently requiring 5 or more hours of time investment. Seldom do I realize the happy outcome of an easy "fog click" ban.

People may be quick to jump to a maphack accusation, but we are not. We understand the seriousness involved with being denied the ability to play for a full year, and none of us takes that responsibility lightly.

ENT policy is to double check every map hack ban because again we take the issue of a one year ban so seriously. The purpose of this is to make sure errors are not made in instances where the stakes are so high. I have never been wrong in my dota maphack cases, so asking me to delay implementing the ban while waiting for confirmation is 1) not evidence based, and 2) would allow said player to continue to play until such time as another staff member had the time to review it. Since it is a maphack case, such reviews take much time and it can be a long time before another reviewer is able to do so.

Ban dodging is really the worst thing a player can do. It implies a complete disregard and or disrespect for the rules that govern play here. There is never a good or justifiable reason for doing this, including being wrongfully banned. We have the appeal process for that. Neither language barriers nor righteous indignation are any kind of defense for this act.

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Re: coco ban

Postby cocow3 » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:22 am

I was banned unfairly and I couldn't just give up the game because of it. Now that I know about the appeals and how they work, I will wait until I am unbanned to play again.

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Re: coco ban

Postby ParkMinYoung » Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:32 am

About coco's response, as of me writing this It's not approved yet but I would like to say that this time these are his own words. He typed it in Korean to me and I translated what he wanted to say the best that I could. If someone wants actual source ( I don't know if he added it or not) it's this. 나는 억울하게 밴을 당해서 게임을 접을수는 없어서 피해서 게임을했고
너가 도와줘서 이제라도 어필을 할수있어서 이제는 피하지 않고 기다리겠다 풀어줄떄까지
I made sure to tell him not to ban dodge again and he agreed. I think he also did a good job of proving he didn't maphack but that's up to the mods to decide. If it turns out he didn't maphack, how long would he have to wait before he can play again? I want to give him a rough estimate.

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Re: coco ban

Postby Astros » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:00 am

I'm already sick of this. Did you just now realize you were banned and shouldn't dodge games? Did none of your fanclub mention that to you? Did you somehow think, "Hey, maybe it's an ENT error and I can make new accounts and continue playing like nothing happened" is the correct approach? It seems he does not want to take responsibility for what he could control.

1) This fanclub needs to stop. If you guys aren't speaking logically, you're confusing everyone here. There are multiple individuals trying to defend him but none of you conveniently were there to tell him to stop creating new accounts to dodge?

2) So now he can type English/translate it but he wasn't able to this entire time? You're telling me that he just figured out what Google translate can do? Did he not think to screenshot the screen when he received an error upon joining an ENT game so he can figure out what went wrong?

3) Awaiting Confirmation, as I've always known it to be, has always been treated as a safeguard to search for dodging/get a second opinion if needed. In this case, Av1on was confident that a second opinion was not needed and we stand by his decision but since this is such a controversial issue, you were told that until another moderator can review it, you are not to dodge. Moderators have been busy banning you for dodging rather than actually reviewing whether you have been maphacking or not because you've made it ten times more difficult than it should be.

Overall, this has been comical.

You were banned for maphacking.
You were told to stop dodging while it is reviewed.
You continued dodging NUMEROUS times - wasting moderator's time fetching your new accounts.
None of your friends happened to tell you that you should stop dodging but they are always here to help you appeal your maphack ban? None of them are able to translate anything to you? You (Coco) are able to figure out how to dodge like you're Edward Snowden but unable to Google Translate the words of WHY YOU ARE BANNED or screenshot the picture to your friends?

Your complete disregard for the rules, inability or refusal to figure out why you're banned, and lack of judgement has not helped your case at all.
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Re: coco ban

Postby TimmyTheTauren » Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:54 am

If you read and comprehended our responses you would answer many of the questions you just posed.

The reason we're making it a big deal is because the guy doesn't maphack and couldn't understand any other way to fix the issue. I don't want to see an innocent go down without being able to defend himself. We're trying to be middlemen in expediting the process if you'll let us. We're trying to defend him but none of us could talk to him except for Park. Which is actually quite inconvenient, no? He doesn't understand but fragments of English. I'm just doing my best to sum up what Park got from him.

He's saying he didn't want to give up the game so the only thing he knew to do was dodge. Park could not contact him in any way up to now because he was being banned. He continued to dodge assuming the same thing he originally assumed. Park finally got a hold of him on an account he made today and got him to join a discord. After explanation, coco now knows there is an alternative to dodging and he needs to wait for the process to conclude. He is obeying it now.

He did not just learn how to use google translate. I'm not sure if you've tried to translate Korean to English or vice versa recently, but it doesn't work out so well. Park is Korean and has an understanding of the language and is aiding in the translation process.

cocow3 wrote:I was banned unfairly and I couldn't just give up the game because of it. Now that I know about the appeals and how they work, I will wait until I am unbanned to play again.

This was an English translation from Park of the Korean that coco wrote in the discord. Coco copy and pasted it. He could not type and translate without the aid of Park.

Once again, he's not trying to be malicious, break rules or make it hard on the admins. He wants to play Island Defense. He now knows the best course of action to continue playing while staying within ENT's rules. I do understand not knowing the rules isn't an excuse, but do be gentle if you decide he does need to be sentenced in some way for his misunderstanding.

Here's a screenshot of the encounter as well as the effectiveness of google translate I attempted before Park translated.
https://imgur.com/a/GeJOS
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Re: coco ban

Postby Haunt » Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:45 am

I would just like to point out that Coco has actually even used VPN to dodge. That doesn't sound like someone who is innocent. Not to mention the other 10+ accounts he has made to dodge. This cannot be ignored, no matter if the MH is confirmed or not.

Not to mention that according to our policy (handbook §9.2, §9.3), if the user dodges the ban request should just be processed because he definitely now broke the rules. Honestly, I can't understand why this complaint is still open and why are we still talking about this?

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Re: coco ban

Postby Zeratul » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:05 am

Haunt wrote:I would just like to point out that Coco has actually even used VPN to dodge. That doesn't sound like someone who is innocent. Not to mention the other 10+ accounts he has made to dodge. This cannot be ignored, no matter if the MH is confirmed or not.

Not to mention that according to our policy (handbook §9.2, §9.3), if the user dodges the ban request should just be processed because he definitely now broke the rules. Honestly, I can't understand why this complaint is still open and why are we still talking about this?


So according to some reviews (including current staff), the maphack accusation is false, which already displays the moderator who first banned failed to analyze evidence correctly (or worse, might have some personal interest with the banned user, and went out of his way to get him banned and failed to remain impartial to the said "evidence" - its pretty easy to make mistakes when you're reviewing someone you wanna ban, and fail to realize/watch the whole context, which seems to be the case looking at the counter reviews of av1on timestamps).

Now the issue remains with his dodging ban:

True that if a certain moderator dindt ban him wrongly/unfairly, this wouldnt happen, however 2 wrongs dont make 1 right and therefore him being unbanned without any punishment (when he even used vpn/proxies to dodge) doesnt sound correct either.

However giving him the 3 months standard reappeal duration ( as it was said on his appeal) is wrong imo, considering the circumstances - At most imo 1 or 2 weeks is more acceptable and fair to both sides (since both were wrong + ENT failed first, on banning a user incorrectly)

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Re: coco ban

Postby Quetra » Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:33 am

So if we take a play by play of what happened:
-Coco is banned for maphack after one moderator's review (which apparently everyone is assuming is immediately invalid despite lack of rereview yet occuring?). This is normal policy, ban takes place on initial review and is then rereviewed. No wrongdoing on Av1ons part, you can see from his review he evaluated the whole replay before coming to a decision.

- He sees that he is banned for maphack. He disagrees and thinks he did not break our rules. So he breaks our rules and begins dodging. In the meantime he makes an appeal saying he did nothing wrong, while dodging, which is obvious to anyone regardless of their english skills would not be allowed.

-I notice the dodge after reading the initial appeal. I ban the new accounts and notify him in the appeal that we have caught him and deny the appeal.

-After the appeal is denied he continues to dodge.

-ID community tries to help him (and presumably already was given the replies in the initial appeal) understand what happened. Now I dispute that this even matters, since regardless of his english skills he knew what he was banned for. The ban message simply said maphack, and everyone knows what maphack is. And as I said, everyone should know that dodging would not be allowed. It doesn't matter if he knows he is innocent or not. It's obvious that dodging a ban would have consequence. That has nothing to do with english skills. That's common sense.

-Second appeal is made. With the help of people even translating for him. Every effort has been made for him. There is absolutely no chance that he doesn't understand what is going on at this point. He says he won't dodge. The appeal is not denied, we are giving him a chance. Discussion begins. 1 and a half hours later I catch another dodge account. Case closed, appeal won't proceed in the near future given he immediately went back on this promise in record time.

I would like to apologize about the ban appeal, I made up something for coco to write because he know's no English. All the English in his appeal including the subject, reason for ban, even his realm and username was what he copied word for word from me. They were not his words, the Korean is all him though so you can either use my translation or ask a trusted Korean member. In his screenshots when he talks to me he explains his dodge reason ( he did it because he couldn't communicate with ent) but in his appeal he did not address it, so I think I failed to communicate with both him and the admins regarding that. If Coco is given another chance, I'll try to talk to him if I see him.


How badly could you possibly explain it? It's a pretty simple idea to convey, don't keep playing. And I have no doubt you conveyed it perfectly. He simply does not care.

There is nothing unusual about this case. We don't make exceptions for people who don't understand much english. The ban was handled in the same way it always is. The only reason this case has been different is that he is well liked and have players supporting him, which actually makes it even more likely he understood what was going on, so why should we make an exception? I'm sure some of you have seen the replay and disagree with the decision (though I have spoken to players who are simply assuming he doesn't maphack and haven't even looked at the replay...)But a rereview was going to take place the very next day. If he hadn't continued to dodge the ban would have been ratified or removed already. It's his own fault.

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Re: coco ban

Postby aRt)Y » Thu Apr 12, 2018 3:07 pm

TimmyTheTauren wrote:By doing this he did not show "he is above the system and can do whatever he wants" but just that he wanted to play the game that he has been playing frequently for quite some time. Just a normal day for coco.

Please stop taking advantage of a player who cannot effectively defend himself. He didn't do anything wrong in the first place and now the staff is using his non-malicious dodging to solidify a ban that shouldn't go through in the first place.
That argumentation is rich, even for you, timmy. ENT has no interest nor gains anything by maliciously banning a single user with whom we have nothing to do with. With that said, it's a shameful interpretation of yours considering you are an ex-mod.

Regarding ENT's transparent administrative process of banning users, everything has been mentioned by haz (viewtopic.php?p=492875#p492866). While ENT tries to optimize the procedure in order to process more requests, we also keep safeguards in order to detect errors. Errors? Yes, they happen; hence, our process: getting banned -> appeal -> complaint. It's a standard, it's easy, it's how ENT works. If you cant speak English, well, that's a pity but being on the internet, we cant bring the argument for everyone. That should be a no-brainer. With that said, maphack bans based on suspicious behavior have _always_ been highly controversial and ENT tries to make the best of it with a system in place for both staff and users to exchange arguments.

In its usual fashion, the ID community has been overly dramatic, jumped to weird argumentations and has no sense for ENT's administrative process; which cant be so new after all these years.

Pardon the user in question because of a language barrier for multiple times of ban dodging? No. If we were to unban him, is he gonna learn English in x days until he gets banned again? How often are you gonna pull out the language-card until we grow tired of it? As you can see, he wont learn English, so the argument is null.

ENT makes the rules for the free service it provides. Do potential errors give you the right to essentially ignore our "ToS"? No.

tl;dr; The maphack ban has been removed given the 1:1 mod situation until more evidence is brought forward. The ban for dodging (it's a seperate violation) remains until July, 11th for re-evaluation and review of potential new dodging. If the ID community wants to be helpful, take your time and communicate to him that failure to speak English is no carte blanche and that dodging is ban-able. 3 words should be easily translated to him and if he ignores (as he already did) that, ENT has no interest in having him as a player.

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