Merex

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pinheadlarry
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Merex

Postby pinheadlarry » Thu Feb 21, 2019 9:57 am

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First of all I would like to start with some context into this complaint:

I was recently banned for extending gameplay of a dota match by 20 minutes without affecting its outcome: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=140113&p=542087&hilit=pinheadlarry#p542087

I have since respectfully served the ban without appealing. Therefore, the complaint should not be viewed as an attempt to bypass the appeal process or a sly effort to reduce one's ban duration.

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My complaint has to do with Merex not following ENT policies (or at least have formerly been), and refusing to respond to a user's request for additional information the policy.

After being banned I sent Merex the following private message which I tried to word as respectfully as possible, despite disagreeing with his verdict:
pinheadlarry wrote:Subject: [DOTA] ban reqeust- pinheadlarry

Merex wrote:Should be fairly clear in 6,000+ games that you
don't conduct your own solo/careless play in a 5v5 team-based
match.

This will mark 4th offense overall towards similar actions in
the past.

Banned until the 20th.



Hello Merex,

I am wondering why I am considered a chronic offender and was given a longer ban because of this? As you correctly stated, I have been banned 4 times in 6000 games for this offense over 6 years. That is about 1 offense every 1500 games... 1500 Games is at least a 1000 hours of gameplay. And I haven't been banned for this in over a year despite playing so many games. What I am trying to get at, is I am actually a very very low frequency offender (I have been banned for refusing to cooperate in 0.07% of all games I have played on ent). Does ent not consider duration between bans or amount of games played when determining if a player is a chronic offender? To me, it seems a bit unreasonable, that most people who play less than 500 games over 2 years, could commit 4 offenses like me, yet be given the same ban duration as me despite having played 1/6 of my games.

I just want to be clear, that I respect your opinion and judgment regarding my ban and I hold no animosity towards you for banning me. Please view this as a message with the intent to be constructive and not an attack on your judgement.

The reason I did not post an appeal is I do not feel it would be productive since I am well-aware of ents rules, and I respectfully disagree with your judgement. Therefore, it would be useless for me to link you the rules in a appeal since I know them, and since I respectfully disagree, I would have to lie to say I am sorry since I feel innocent. However, I do understand your point of view regarding why you banned me and I will respect that.

What I would like to know, is why you designated me as a repeat offender and therefore gave me a longer ban, despite my ulta-low offense rate?

Thank you for you time!

pinheadlarry.


Merex refused to answer this message. The reason I opted to PM Merex was to avoid this being a big deal and to hopefully either resolve or enlighten me as to Ent's repeat offender policy. However, Merex has unfortunately left me with few paths of recourse.

My first complaint is that Merex administered a ban during against me that was excessive in length and counter to ENT's policies on repeat offenders or at minimum, inconsistent with other Mods.

Reasons I feel this ban duration was excessive:
1. As correctly noted by both Astros and Merex, I merely extended gameplay by 20 minute with no effect on the outcome of the game. Naturally this is not malicious in nature with the intent to lose a game and should be categorized as a very minor ban offense at most.
2. I am approaching 6000 games with only 4 similar bans during this time. This is an offense rate of about 0.07% and should hardly constitute slapping someone as a repeat offender. Ent has had a policy of looking at ban frequency when adjudicating ban lengths for repeat offenses.
-On a side note, what is the current ENT policy regarding frequency of a particular offense that ENT considered a "repeat offender" and thus warranting a longer ban duration? (Merex refused to respond)

Kappa is a very well respected and established ENT mod that has recently adjudicated 2 bans that strongly support my notion that Merex was acting counter/inconsistently to ENT's policy:

1. viewtopic.php?f=24&t=140000

In this ban, jewz_did_9-11 destroyed items and afked which had a clear effect on the outcome of the game (unlike my ban which had no effect on the outcome). Kappa, levied a 3 day ban for an offense that is purely malicious with the clear intent to game ruin and lose the game (again, unlike my ban). Therefore my initial ban without any premium for "repeat offenses" should have been lesser to be consistent with Kappa.

2. viewtopic.php?f=24&t=140369

Here is another ban that had a malicious tone that once again possibly changed the outcome of the game. In this case, the offender was classified a repeat offender with multiple offenses. Kappa, in this case levied a 5 day ban which is once again inconsistent with Merex's actions.


I believe this evidence makes this complaint of substance against Merex and therefore is appropriate to post in this forum. It is worthwhile to note that I did try to resolve this with Merex in a civil fashion (via a PM) to avoid pursing a formal complaint.

This is what brings me to my second complaint, Merex, as a mod should act professionally and diligently to answer questions regarding ENT policy

I believe ENT mods are expected to be accessible to its users. I am sure ENT mods would agree that requests for information regarding ENT policies is a reasonable grounds to send a PM and that mods have a duty to understand and inform its users when questioned about such policies. Obviously ENT rules and policies are not meant to be a secret yet Merex refused to respond to my request for information (possibly because he realized he acted in contrast with them?). I feel Merex should be reminded of the expectations mods are expected to adhere to.


To summarize, my two complaints are:

1. Merex does not abide by ENT's repeat offender policy, or at minimum, adjudicates ban durations inconsistently with other mods for repeat offenders
2. Merex, has a duty to respond to respectful messages that ask for clarification on ENTs policies.


Thank you for your time and consideration. I hope we can reach a positive resolution.

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Re: Merex

Postby Kappa » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:43 am

Seeing as my ban durations were brought up here - I'd like to add some reasoning for the durations I gave.

1) viewtopic.php?f=24&t=140000

Violation occurred near the end of the game. The offense didn't have any impact on the outcome of the game and I couldn't find any previous offenses.

2) viewtopic.php?f=24&t=140369

There was a leaver on their team making the game 4v5 for the violator. AFK occured at the end of the game and the user still somewhat participated in defending at times. Was AFK for approximately 5 minutes. AFK had no impact on the outcome and the prior offenses were from some time ago.

In addition, moderators do have some discretion when it comes to the duration they ban users. I do tend to be on the more lenient side and go for smaller durations as its just how I am.

I'd like to hear from @Merex now on the reasoning for his ban duration and not answer the PM to add more context to this.

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Re: Merex

Postby AmnoN » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:53 pm

As a note, the most recent ban ("3rd offense") was 2 years ago (November 2016) (had not been banned for anything else since then, apart from auto-bans). I have not seen someone searching 2+ years back in records of someone who has not been banned since then in order to increase ban lengths on grounds of "repeat offenses". If the user had been banned for several other things since then, that is a different situation. As Kappa mentioned, more context would be needed from Merex to provide a balanced view of what transpired and why.

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Re: Merex

Postby Merex » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:18 pm

The ban in-question was issued on the grounds as a 4th offense here at ENT. To elaborate on the matter, pinheadlarry had fallen under enforcement of the same rule 3 times prior in the past, regardless of the length between such. Given my fellow mods are concerned over issuing such a length partially from such long past of priors, they still stand and (as they only will know themselves) checking history is quite an "easy" task and requires no real extra effort needed to see the history of a specific player throughout their entire time here at ENT. Following that, we've no statue in our own staff-policy that can illegitimate any prior history from any given time.

As for not answering the PM, I'm a rather busy person/moderator altogether handling many different tasks and can't always be available at players disposal. Following that, I've multiple PM's to attend to and sometimes they just "slip" by me. Happens, there's not much else to say.

I do find it curious however that in pinheadlarry's efforts to gain further clarity, that he thought a formal complaint against me was in order rather than simply PM'ing another mod and deciding based on their response to proceed or not. Even then, a ban appeal would've been more appropriate asking for a secondary review into his ban before hitting complaints on the grounds that I neither follow my own in-staff policy which the OP would have no idea about given he's a civilian and that I ignore players just because I missed his PM. Following that, it wouldn't be within his right to question my professionalism given the context that he's but a banned player unhappy with the fact he was banned.

All-in-all, I find this complaint to be a blatant overstep from someone who not only continuously violates our rules, but doesn't even show us the respect of remorse/acknowledgement via our appeal section but rather sit out his fairly long ban and try to use it as a ploy against me. There's dozens of other ways this could've been handled and a complaint was not necessary.
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Re: Merex

Postby pinheadlarry » Fri Feb 22, 2019 12:35 am

Following that, we've no statue in our own staff-policy that can illegitimate any prior history from any given time.


Perhaps there isn't a statute, but like other bans, such as flaming, you are expected to use reasonable judgement. Let me get your stance straight,
Given my fellow mods are concerned over issuing such a length partially from such long past of priors, they still stand and (as they only will know themselves) checking history is quite an "easy" task and requires no real extra effort needed to see the history of a specific player throughout their entire time here at ENT.


According to you, the complete history of a player should be used against them. So, someone who commits 4 similar offenses in 100 games over 2 months is equivalently malicious to someone who committed 4 offenses over 6000 games over 6 years?

This is where my opinion, and other mod's opinions differ from yours. This is also why my first complaint still stands:
My first complaint is that Merex administered a ban during against me that was excessive in length and counter to ENT's policies on repeat offenders or at minimum, inconsistent with other Mods.


I do find it curious however that in pinheadlarry's efforts to gain further clarity, that he thought a formal complaint against me was in order rather than simply PM'ing another mod and deciding based on their response to proceed or not.


Let me clear up your curiosity. I was actually quite confident that prior mod such as beerlord, arii, etc, would prorate bans based on # of games or time in between. I had also dredged through completed ban requests and noticed that current mods were administering much shorter durations for repeat offenders. And lastly, if I would have PMed Kappa or Amnon, they would have just confirmed my prior knowledge. It is ultimately your opinion I needed to know and why I PMed you, and it would have been great if we could have had a discussion off this forum to see if we could have reached common ground. Unfortunately, my message "slipped" by you and is the reason we are here now. I also did not want to resend you a message on the off chance you did miss it because you have on multiple occasions, threatened to forum ban players for "spamming" you. If you forum banned me, you would take away my opportunity for further recourse. On many appeals, you tell players they will get forum bans if they "attempt to lash out" such as through a PM. (Here is a recent example, but obviously a much worse offense in question viewtopic.php?f=25&t=140104&p=542004&hilit=forum#p542004) Since I already have concerns with your judgement, I would be apprehensive that you would consider a resent message spam. The next quote below also shows you consider this a lash out since you feel I am posting this because "I am unhappy" with being banned.

Following that, it wouldn't be within his right to question my professionalism given the context that he's but a banned player unhappy with the fact he was banned.
Merex, I am only unhappy with the fact you acted in contrast with the judgement exercised by other mods. Please don't forget, I respectfully served the 10 day ban as I can easily live 10 days without dota. Like I mentioned in the PM and this complaint, I respected your decision that what I did was bannable, despite disagreeing.

Even then, a ban appeal would've been more appropriate asking for a secondary review into his ban before hitting complaints on the grounds that I neither follow my own in-staff policy which the OP would have no idea about given he's a civilian and that I ignore players just because I missed his PM.


An appeal would not resolve the problem at hand. An appeal would only serve to reduce my ban duration to an appropriate level which was of little concern and would not expose your questionable judgement in a way that would hopefully lead to change. I am concerned about your view on repeat offenders because these ban durations will become appreciable if you continuously increment punishments. If I play another 1000 games and unfortunately incur another ban, by your convention I would likely see a ban of 20days to a full month. I feel it is in my best interest to proactively try to at-minimum, expose your questionable view on repeat offenders.

All-in-all, I find this complaint to be a blatant overstep from someone who not only continuously violates our rules,

Isn't that a gross exaggeration? Continuously?? I have played clean for over 2 years in excess of 1000 games and that constitutes a continuous violator? I think I have every reason to be concerned with your judgement when you pin me as that.

but doesn't even show us the respect of remorse/acknowledgement via our appeal section but rather sit out his fairly long ban and try to use it as a ploy against me.


As I mentioned in your PM:

The reason I did not post an appeal is I do not feel it would be productive since I am well-aware of ents rules, and I respectfully disagree with your judgement. Therefore, it would be useless for me to link you the rules in a appeal since I know them, and since I respectfully disagree, I would have to lie to say I am sorry since I feel innocent. However, I do understand your point of view regarding why you banned me and I will respect that.


The reason I served my ban was to ensure other mods would not view this as a sly attempt to get my ban reduced. The ban itself is not the point of this complaint. The point of this complaint is your judgement regarding repeat offenders and lack of response to a PM. By serving the ban, this ensures we are not distracted from the true nature of this complaint.


There's dozens of other ways this could've been handled and a complaint was not necessary.

There is only 1 other way this could have been resolved and that was through a constructive discussion through PMs. Unfortunately, judging by your ingrained questionable view of handling repeat offenders without consideration for offense-frequency and that you view me as continuous violator, I feel we would have ended up here anyway in the end.

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Re: Merex

Postby Merex » Fri Feb 22, 2019 1:10 am

It's already been established multiple times that discretion can and will be used by moderators individually. For instance, Kappa who has stated to be more lenient is his choice, while I'm not exactly the same way. Does not mean I'm right and he's wrong, nor the latter. It's a mere difference at best, as you've stated, but not inaccuracy. At the end of the day, proper judgement is used by each and every moderator following the ban duration(s) we issue. This is an invalid claim in your complaint as any mod can tell you 10 days for a 4th offense is more than justified for the rule you broke.

A players history is simply not used "against them". This is just twisting words, but, I will explain for further clarity => A player who breaks the rule of game ruining specifically refusing to cooperate w/ their team in the realm of DotA is at grounds for anywhere from a 2-3 day ban. Possibly even 5, depending on the severity of the situation. A player who violates this a 2nd time around is automatically grounds for double the duration if the ban is valid/has enough evidence to suggest. It's your 4th offense and this case in particular was quite clear and at default would've been a 4-5 day ban alone from me. If we 4x that, it's 16-20 days but I only gave you 10 specifically because of said judgement. I didn't just blindly see it's your 4th and popped the big number out, I took into consideration a lot of moderator-like factors that we the staff equally do and 10 days, in my professional opinion, seemed more than reasonable for this situation.

I appreciate you hold a respect to our former, now retired, staff but sadly - not everyone can be the same. What's important of you, a longtime citizen, to consider is that staff change, the world moves on and it's best of you to embrace such. Keeping the same staff expectancy from that of years ago in your head is going to get you no where. And for the record, I do come from their time and before, even. So it should be noted I've myself a seniority on matters like this specifically above when I mentioned you were at-risk for a much higher duration but I ultimately decided to find a fair median. If you choose not to see it that way, that's fine. But in no way should that be an excuse for you to blatantly come after me and claim all these things that are supposedly wrong with me based on a ban request in which you were enforced in.

My forum administrative process here in regards to "threatening forum bans" is irrelevant in this case. But, since you've been respectful in your words I will say, in regards to bigtits - He is a known violator of both the forum and in-game. There is multiple instances within his history alone where he insults publicly in ban requests, makes spam requests, "outcries" which is different from here as his is of little sense and more leaned on frustration alone. He's also both insulted myself & the staff entirely. It's just a no-go for his type of toxicity to be within our community which is why I took an initiative to ensure that nothing comes of his behavior in the time he's banned in-game.

Overall, the rest of your responses are just leaned on the re-occurring point that I'm banning excessively towards repeat offenders and "other mods" wouldn't do the same. If you'd like, you can ask the two mods here @AmnoN and @Kappa to give their insight on the matter in your case. This, would involve them however taking time out of their day to personally see your case, your history and basically overall judge the situation as it's their own and see what duration they would have given. I'm not saying they will slap 10 days on you like myself, but I believe they will share the same concerns I did.
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Re: Merex

Postby Astros » Fri Feb 22, 2019 5:33 am

While an initial look at this would make it seem as if a ten-day ban was excessive, I agree with the ruling. This player knowingly refused to cooperate with his team after they asked numerous times. After 30-40 minutes of ignoring them, the other team gained steam and was able to hold off scourge while they were trying to end. This should not have been the case and could be effectively deemed "game-ruining" because his teammates were now forced to fight a team 4v5 and it effectively allowed the other team to somewhat close the gap. I believe only Merex and I watched the replay but if I am wrong, can any mod justify that his behavior was not game-ruining? 30-40 minutes of ignoring teammates, refusing to cooperate, prolonging the game against late-game heroes on the other team. This was not a five-minute incident. I would quantify 90% of the game consisting of Pinheadlarry farming in the jungle.


I believe Merex to be a fair individual. He may be blunt but when you've been a Staff member for years with over 6,000 posts, there is nothing you haven't seen here before. The complaints, by virtue, are always going to happen due to the amount of requests he has handled in his lifetime here. It should not be used to try and discredit his ruling as a pattern of abusing his role here as a Staff member. No one is perfect but in this particular ruling, there is no question, in my mind, this player deserved a ban anywhere from 7-10 days.
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Re: Merex

Postby HazarDous » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:23 am

1. Merex does not abide by ENT's repeat offender policy, or at minimum, adjudicates ban durations inconsistently with other mods for repeat offenders


Regardless of policies, refusal to cooperate can vary in substance unlike most other offenses. It is, thus, normal for moderator's interpretation and judgment to hold more weight in the ban length than mere application of repeated offenses policy. If, as stated by Astros, your refusal to cooperate was borderline game ruining, then the ban will obviously be longer.

With regards to the time period since the last offense, moderators are are encouraged to take into consideration every factor. Therefore, it was okay for @Merex to slightly consider the ban history.

Following that, we've no statue in our own staff-policy that can illegitimate any prior history from any given time.


For clarification, while the above is technically true, it doesn't mean that you should not also take into consideration the time period wherein the offender has remained "clean". >2 years is a long time for sure and should be taken into account. Nonetheless, the ban length given by Merex falls within acceptable grounds and would have better been addressed via appeal or DM (see point #2 for the latter).



2. Merex, has a duty to respond to respectful messages that ask for clarification on ENTs policies.


Correct. Let's just keep in mind that we can't keep up with every single PM as Merex stated. We often look our notifications on phone/computer on the go, meaning we don't necessarily have time to answer PMs. Walls of texts especially. Having clicked on the notification, it is therefore probable to forget, every now and then, to answer such PMs at a later time given the fact we no longer have a notification. While we do expect moderators to answer their PM, I cannot and will not hold Merex accountable for not having done so in one single instance.

As a further note, PMs are extremely static... For such discussions like ban length opinion and ENT policies, or for external points of view, discord DM and forum appeals are better avenues, respectively.



Thanks for the complaint, if you have further policy questions, feel free to DM me.


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