Antistuck abuse

[bezdak]

Hello,

please, if you play LTD, take a few minutes to write your opinion on this case here, I appreciate every single one.


I'd like to suggest changing the antistuck rules for LTD Mega (ENT 18 bot) to following:

- Anti-Stuck cannot be used unless creeps are actually stuck. In that case, anti-stuck must be used.
- The only exception to this rule is using antistuck on fighters in order to catch leaks of a teammate on a neighboring lane.


I have several reasons for this.

1. As we all know, any use of antistuck other than actually antistucking is only a glitch abuse.
2. Slowly but surely players are finding out, that spamming AS resets an attack animation of the creeps, therefore they spam it on every level on cooldown. This not only allows you to hold better, but is also incredibly annoying spam, not to mention the other team usually suspect something fishy. It's only a matter of time when a constant ASing will become new meta.
3. There are also several other AS abuses, such as AS mid at lvl 31 or AS sends for merged build (basically the same, that was already forbidden for cross), both of those can easily decide the game. Also by ASing units in mid you can easily delay the wave even more or feed the holder only by leaving the rest of the team units behind. None of these 4 abuses are currently bannable.
4. The only good addition to the game is ability to catch teammates leaks in case he fails, which allows you to save the game that a newbie could lost very early otherwise. Anything else just gives an unfair advantage to people that know about it.
5. Only a small portion of people are aware of this side effect of using AS on creeps and abuse it, the rest just suffers from not having enough information and that automatically puts them into a disadvantage. However they can surely see something fishy going on there, since every wave they get a screen full of AS messages.
6. People are starting to demand bans for such AS usage. I briefly checked out the recent BRQs and at least 2 of them wanted to ban for this.
7. Did i mention how fucking annoying it is to see all those messages?

By this step I do not want to forbid AS the way it is on 1200+. What I'd like to achieve is to only have 1 AS abuse allowed - the one everybody knows about and that can compensate for a newbies and gameruiners in the team or opens up many new strategies in general - and make the game more fair and less annoying.

TL;DR:
Any kind of usage of AS other than its purpose should be forbidden with the exception of catching leaks, which could save a ruined game by a noob and opens up many new strategies. This prevents the new AS spamming on cd every wave meta, for example.
Do you agree with this?

[IamHodor]

Imo, I think that ENT18 is not a good place to be.

[milfhunter96]

TL;DR:
Any kind of usage of AS other than its purpose should be forbidden with the exception of catching leaks, which could save a ruined game by a noob and opens up many new strategies.
Do you agree with this?

Imo any kind should be banable, even to catch leaks. People using as to catch leaks on their side just steal gold from their teammates on the other side (at least until they give no more bounty in mid). Also it has nothing to do with the game itself, people should use towers to hold, not as

[bezdak]

Imo any kind should be banable, even to catch leaks.

This is why we all play 1200+ However you have to admit when some noob fucks up and have 0 bounty on lvl 5, cos he went for an outcast start instead of an ea, you have to have something to compensate for this

[milfhunter96]

but giving the whole gold to a single player is not the best solution for it Also the "better" player could build in mid if he wanna catch the leaks instead of using as

[Uryn]

Imo this change would make cross even more op. Catching leaks to get a strong solo lane is one of the ways to beat a good cross. Cross leaks pretty much always give 100% bounty in mid because of the high value. If you want to ban antistuck on ent18 cross should be banned too.

I play 1200+ and mega and for me its fun to have different games on ent18 by having different rules.

The only exception to this rule is using antistuck on fighters in order to catch leaks of a teammate on a neighboring lane.

With this exception it could be fine, but I don't think these changes are needed.

[milfhunter96]

Imo this change would make cross even more op. Catching leaks to get a strong solo lane is one of the ways to beat a good cross.

If you use as to catch leaks of your teammate you could go cross instead (its like a manual cross if u use as to move your units up/down, no?)AS just gives you the adventage of cross (high val on 1 player) but not the disadventages (like a chance to split, towers stuck on port area etc)
btw just send 1 and 99% of cross is fucked hard

[IamHodor]

If you plan on banning antistuck to catch leaks then you gotta ban crossing aswell, same kind of "abuse".

[milfhunter96]

havent crossed in the actual version but in the past building cross was risky as i mentioned above, using as not. Also you can counter cross, but you cant counter as

[elokiller]

there is really no need for more rules/exceptions.. should keep it the way it is.

[SLSGuennter]

havent crossed in the actual version but in the past building cross was risky as i mentioned above, using as not. Also you can counter cross, but you cant counter as

Using as disedventages:
You are (on big builds) not able to as all units good and quick, so some may teleport mid or join the battle late.
If there is some delay (even a minor one) and we all know, thats happening from time to time, you may not be able to as AT ALL.
There may be more, but last time i was truly active on ENT18 is quite some time ago ^^

Cannot be used to delay or prevent units from teleporting to king with the intention to hide units or to aggro units away from king.
@Bezdak
This is making it banable to as any units on sidelanes to make the holder teleporting mid alone and killing all leaked units from other lanes.

Cannot be used on creeps and sends that are attacking the king. --- This could get changed to "as creeps and sends (which arent stuck ofc)"

[bezdak]

Cannot be used to delay or prevent units from teleporting to king with the intention to hide units or to aggro units away from king.
@Bezdak
This is making it banable to as any units on sidelanes to make the holder teleporting mid alone and killing all leaked units from other lanes.

I meant AS in mid to run forward, not to prevent from teleporting.

Cannot be used on creeps and sends that are attacking the king. --- This could get changed to "as creeps and sends (which arent stuck ofc)"

I actually like this one.

[Mercious]

But do you really need an opinion for this? _Clearly_ it HAS to be the way you propose.

As many others i would actually love to see 1.2k+ rules on Ent 18. Maybe even on a different bot, where you basically have 1.2k+ rules without having to be 1.2k+.
Ent 18 can then be the crossing-server or whatever. But clearly, the game is not balanced for crossing at all, every game with decent people becomes a 20+ game where every team is so overvalued that even 8k+ wood sends per player dont kill.

But yeah, yes to everything your suggested in the OP.

[Jabba41]

Thanks for input on this suggestion.

Let me comment your arguments/reasons first:

1. As we all know, any use of antistuck other than actually antistucking is only a glitch abuse.

-> Thats not a real argument as we allow it since ever, sending demon 15 wasnt intented by the mapmaker too for example

2. Slowly but surely players are finding out, that spamming AS resets an attack animation of the creeps, therefore they spam it on every level on cooldown. This not only allows you to hold better, but is also incredibly annoying spam, not to mention the other team usually suspect something fishy. It's only a matter of time when a constant ASing will become new meta.

-> The strong thing about using AS on creeps or sends is that the pathing changes, so often you delay them a little as they block each other, creeps barely change attack animation, doesnt make a big differerence as soon as they attack anymore. @broud3r will fix the re-pathing after AS with the new version.

3. There are also several other AS abuses, such as AS mid at lvl 31 or AS sends for merged build (basically the same, that was already forbidden for cross), both of those can easily decide the game. Also by ASing units in mid you can easily delay the wave even more or feed the holder only by leaving the rest of the team units behind. None of these 4 abuses are currently bannable.

-> See above regarding re-pathing. So far, using AS on sends on merged builds never occured afaik, if reported we can treat it like cross cases as the situation is nearly the same, no need to make a rule for it when its not possible soon anyway. Both teams are able to use AS in mid on 31, which actually is something pretty nice as many units would be extremly useless 20+ games as they always get stucked. Dont see a problem here for the mega bot.

5. Only a small portion of people are aware of this side effect of using AS on creeps and abuse it, the rest just suffers from not having enough information and that automatically puts them into a disadvantage. However they can surely see something fishy going on there, since every wave they get a screen full of AS messages.

-> A lot of people know it, just not new players or people who dont care. But they dont know a lot of stuff, that isnt a reason for a rule change.

6. People are starting to demand bans for such AS usage. I briefly checked out the recent BRQs and at least 2 of them wanted to ban for this.

-> You find such cases for every rule we have/not have ^^ Trust me The amount of people reporting for AS on creeps is very low and never really increased. People do it since ever.

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We dont want another 1200+ bot as you say yourself, the AS usage was always just limited by other rules (i.e. Killstealing) and by OP strategies/abuses of it (i.e. AS sends on king/AS sends on 2nd cross line/hiding after leak/pulling from king).

By beeing able to AS in mid and feed a holder the games give you a lot more possibilities, possibilities many people love who play Mega instead of 1200+. Merging solo builds or just feeding one line while the other completly suicides is a vailable tactic and shouldnt get limited by our Antistuck rules, keep in mind Cross is allowed.

With an eye on the LTD mega delevopment and the reworked pathing i dont see a reason to add a new rule here.
1. The rule suggested is too much of a change and dont fit.
2. The actual problems that might be argueable here will be fixed soon.
-> It would be a waste of time to include a new rule for a few weeks and explain them to people in appeals etc. when the "violation" (which isnt one atm) will be impossible soon anyway.


Archieving.