New Island Defense Version

[Thegreatbadone]

The longest problem i had with this game it always been then in most pub games it's 50/50 with titan spot no one really like to titan 99.9% of the time which annoys the living hell out of me on QUE times on lobby so i find a way to make the builders weaker while making the titan sightly better to help out with noob titans but its never been a easy fleet to balance a game either consider World of Warcraft there huge community around balancing a game they have tried for 14+ Years to do so.

[IAmDragon]

@Hash Who are these others? Have them come forward and speak or forever hold your peace

[Ben_T]

All I'm saying is this map should be tested more before implemented, it should go through processes like being uploaded to ENT Link then hosted to see how the community feels about the map before being added to ent.60.

@hash Although you may not realize, the map has been tested much more than you seem to believe and there have also been games publicly hosted using the new version for any players to join. Many random Island Defense players joined, both experienced and inexperienced, new and old. This is similar to the map being uploaded to ENT link and we got input from the players who joined the game. All that aside, if iamdragon uploads the map to ENT link and it is hosted for about a week, then the community can see how the map is. However, this would be very similar to iamdragon's version of the map being auto-hosted on ENT so i feel like your trying to not promote healthy change to the game. If you believe this change is unhealthy to the game and the community, then i would first request that you and others play the new version multiple times instead of only looking at the change log or making hasty first impressions of the new version of the game. Furthermore, I would love if you stopped ambiguously saying that there are problems with the new version and I insist that you explain what problems there are with the new version in more detail. Also please keep in mind some of the people in favor for the new version play the game much more frequently than you do and therefore we might have more insight into the game

[Hash]

@iamdragon I think it would be highly disrespectful and unprofessional of me to out their names like that without permission, I hope you can understand that. But you will see their votes, and that's all that matters.

@ben_T What you might consider as healthy change, I might consider to be imbalances, but okay. I personally love change, I just don't like the fact of rushing into change without proper testing. I believe if you are going to do something, do it right, which means thoroughly testing the map before releasing it. Even our main editor Neco feels it's a bit rushed. Now you can assume you guys play more than I do and have better insight about the game than I do, but you know what happens when you assume. It's not like I've played 12,000+ Island Defense games in the past 3 years or have had the highest elo in Island Defense or anything. I would certainly like to play it with you guys to get a better feel, but there have been times where you have excluded people I know from testing the map, which isn't exactly an inviting feeling. Look I'm not opposed to implementing this version, I just want it better tested before we do, so we don't get stuck with a version on ENT that has bugs and imbalances. I feel like I am just repeating myself now, so I'm going to leave it at that. Hope everyone has a good night, peace.

[Kaz]

Look I'm not opposed to implementing this version, I just want it better tested before we do, so we don't get stuck with a version on ENT that has bugs and imbalances.

- Satyr can't speed poke Glac
- Titans can hide items in the statue
- Random glitch where the titan doesn't get vision from killing a builder
- Volt nuke having unlimited bounce targets

- Molt is easily the most played titan at higher levels, with luci being a close second.
- Syph/Demo/Glac see little to no play, with most of their play being from -AR modes.
- Self det combined with unnukable lumber bases remove a lot of titans potential to gain levels.
- There are more than a few subject balance problems: titans late game siege potential, Rad's burn damage, Tauren's DPS, Mag's walls. Morphling.

If you want to talk about bugs and imbalances, I'm not sure that 4.0 is a good example. Wasn't demonologist unavailable for 6+ months? I could easily make a list twice as long for 3.0.9. In no way do I want to imply 4.0 is a bad version, I simply want to show that every version is going to have bugs and imbalances. It doesn't matter how long or how hard you test it in, beta is never going to compare to live testing.

If anything, you should be questioning response time. Say that a game breaking bug was found, how long would it take to fix the bug and upload the map to ENT? Blizzard takes 5-6 months for Hearthstone, League of Legends usually takes a month. Bugs are expected, and honestly acceptable. It's the developer response to these bugs. @ENT Mods @IAmDragon

I would certainly like to play it with you guys to get a better feel, but there have been times where you have excluded people I know from testing the map, which isn't exactly an inviting feeling.

I know Pepn was in one of the tests, I'm not sure of who we "excluded", so to speak. There was no intention to do so, if something did happen, it was purely unintentional, and I'd like to personally apologize. With that said, I'd be more then happy to host another test. This goes for the entirety of the ID community. If you want to test the new map, see some of the changes in action, or just look at the shiny new updates, feel free to message me, and I can set it up. There are others in the ID community that I'm sure would be willing to do the same if you asked.

Information
Battle.net - Kaz
I'm usually on USWest

You can also find me in the ID discord. Feel free to contact me any time. Even now, we're still testing the new map, trying to remove any and all potential issues. Another person helping with that would be appreciated.

[Ben_T]

@hash even though I insisted that you mention the problems with the new version in detail, you did not manage to mention anything. This leads me to believe that your view on the new version of island defense is based on your opinion rather than the content

that fixes should be fast but features should be slow.

Whereas Neco put out features and fixes slow(such as with demo), Iamdragon and remixer constantly work on Island Defense and will rapidly fix any problems with the new version of Island Defense after it has started auto-hosting. As long as ENT keeps up with the new fixes being made, we will see a quick development of Island defense in a short period of time. Considering Neco didn't follow his own advice about fixes being fast, how can we trust him on his opinion of how features should be slow?

[Neco]

The biggest problem for me wasn't slow fixes, it was no reporting. I didn't fix the demo bug because I only learned about it a few months in... Then when I did have a fix the next day it took a few weeks for ENT to put it up.

The benefit of Remixer/IAmDragon is rapid features / changes.

[Kappa]

My opinion as posted on Discord to this whole issue:

Won't participate in poll either. Creating the best version of ID is not found through a numbers game of voting, but made through playing and seeing what works. The change is big and thats what we fucking want. We've played the same ID forever and it's never been the right game. I think next version needs to be out.

My overall point is that even saying what works now is okay does not by any means the game is at its most fun or best balance. I think anyone that has played the game for years knows there are some fundamental flaws that no creator has addressed since the game's creation. I'd like to see those fixed. If the entire community other than a small minority wants the game to stay the same then I guess do nothing, but I'd prefer some improvements. Thank you to developers for their time and efforts.

[Fate-]

I'd love to have the game more seriously updated constantly as I am sure a lot of us would. I am 100% for a new map dev, no offense at all to Neco as I have enjoyed his work for so many years but as we all know our lives tend to get busy.

However my opinion of the azeroth group is not a good one. I mean no offense to the majority of the players as I probably haven't had the chance to play with you much but for the ones I have it is almost a joke. I see constant ghosting and that is just one of the things I have noticed. How can I vote for a new map dev when one is heavily involved with this group? How can I trust the map won't be influenced and abused by this group? - The most concerning thing about this is he got banned for map hacking and even if he was ghosting that still isn't okay -

As for Remixer I have no opinion on him at the moment as I have heard very little.

I care little if people dislike me for this post for this is just my opinion and what I have noticed sense my return.


-!-
BUT my biggest comment on this matter has to do with two things. First the whole voteing for stuff is just a silly idea on ent, I mean come on we all know why lol...
And finally second I think Neco should just listen to what the community and his friends have to say on the matter and then decide on his own what should happen. This makes more sense to me instead of a silly vote that has no proof of legitimacy.
-!-

[Ben_T]

I see constant ghosting and that is just one of the things I have noticed.

@Fate- Ghosting can easily be confused with familiarity. For example I am very familiar Kaz's gameplay as titan and therefore I am gutsier when golding. If u check replays, which I doubt you will and I don't blame you for, Kaz kills me very often while I'm golding. Not to mention there are times when he will go after 3 of my lumber bases within 5 minutes just because he knows where I like to go. Just because we are all talking and having fun doesn't mean we will cheat for each other because that takes the fun out of the game. This is all I will say about this subject considering it has little to do with the thread topic, but if you would like to continue this conversation I would be happy to.

[Remixer]

Let me join the discussion:

The point where I see things are that we, IAmDragon and me, did a huge update with many changes and fixes and also new content, which also for sure will require and has required many fixes. I already brought this up with IAmDragon that we shouldn't push out this large update for various reasons. Let me take you an image from the discussion:
[Nevermind turns out the image embedded to the message bugs so here's the link: https://i.gyazo.com/b2cacd8646eb936b265 ... 48220b.png]
This is something I feared would happen, a part of the community is afraid of the many changes and we end up debating if something is good or bad. Then again, in my opinion change is not something "optional". Community has demanded change for a long time, and I am sad to see that now that we have something new and fresh, there's a huge debate that gets way, way, way more attention than my previous posts, dev notes and rework sketches have gotten combined. This, for me, messaged a quite clear message: either community does not care / cannot say about the changes I make OR they trust me and the changes as an editor. I cannot say I would not be upset or frustrated at the fact that many times I posted here and brought up a way to discuss, but few joined in and actually said something. And now that we've implemented the changes, mentioned way ahead in time who no one protested, suddenly there seems to be a huge conflict about it. Why did the protestors tell this before-hand?

you dodged the bullet and from the looks of it made a "threat" to upload your own version of ID.

Now while I agree that a dev banned for Map Hacking is something that shouldn't happen, I can say that uploading "own" version is not a threat. We, IAmDragon and I, have worked for months on this update, way before any ban was taking place, and we have discussed how should we host the map altogether, especially in the developing progress, for we all know that ENT is not very fast with updating the map on their bot.

What everyone should remember is that I was the one Neco had shared the map with before he shared it to IAmDragon. Neco trusted me when it comes to implementing new changes and ideas and balancing and improving Island Defense overall. I was left alone with the map for around 1-2 months in the Summer, while Neco was busy with his life. I then brought up the discussion that we need a dev who can code, and that later turned out to be IAmDragon. Now you might notice that I cannot code (unless knew it already, posted before on ENT too), so you may ask what do I do then? More or less, I am in charge of all the changes made. I can list the changes that IAmDragon did solely on his own, before I agreed they were something we could do (every change he made was discussed between us):
General Changes
• Enabled the Titan Finder - In event of a titan leaving, should no player volunteer, the game will attempt to force-find a titan
(Will be disabled should a lot of players dislike it)
• Fixed false tooltip of "Pulverize" ability
Morphling
• Morph Beast Form - Builder Form CD Reduced from 180s/90s to 60s/30s
• Towers attack speed has been changed after comparing their effective DPS (13) to other towers (from 17-26)
• Attackspeed on all towers has been changed from 2.4 to 1.50 on the first two towers (Basic and Enhanced), changed to 1.4 on Super and 1.35 on Megas
Tauren
• Made towers have normal armor, fitting in with every other tower in the game
Demonologist
• Buffed walls by 100 HP
Grant
• Made Earth’s Valor reduce magic damage by 100% (was not previously set)
Now that is all, every single change, IAmDragon has made to the Island Defense map on his own. Everything else that has been changed (majority of the changes) have come from me. So I really do not understand the fuss about not trusting IAmDragon, while it was me who: reworked 3 Titans, changed Builders' vision, changed Nature's army, changed most of the Titans' scouting, changed Builders' items stats and changed changed ultimate towers. This clearly indicates that more or less I am responsible for the changes, not IAmDragon. If we talk about solely the risk of bugs here, I can tell that there 100% surely is a bug we have not found in the new version, and this is something that will 100% be found in the public testing.

The fact is that we have tested the map and fixed dozens (I think over a hundred) bugs already, and I do hope we managed to catch the most crucial ones. From my point of view, I'd like the whole community to get to play the new version, it's been the same old version with very little changes for way too long already. The issue here is that now that the map has potential to change rapidly and frequently, the issue here is that will the map get updated to the host bot fast enough? But that has nothing to do with whether or not some one trusts IAmDragon as an editor or not (which as a whole is odd discussion to be brought public anyway).

I see the poll no longer serving any kind of purpose as more people have told to NOT vote on ENT polls than people have told voted. Same trend could be seen in the scouting poll made previously.

[Hash]

Personally I think maybe too much was changed in just one version (pushed by enthusiasm I'm sure) and that fixes should be fast but features should be slow.

I already brought this up with IAmDragon that we shouldn't push out this large update for various reasons.

Considering both our main editors for Island Defense don't feel this version is ready to be hosted on ENT.60, can we close this thread? I think we've determined if this map is ready to be hosted on ENT or not. With more testing I would like to play this on ENT, but I think the general consensus for the people who understand and edit the map is that it's just not ready yet.

[Remixer]

Personally I think maybe too much was changed in just one version (pushed by enthusiasm I'm sure) and that fixes should be fast but features should be slow.

I already brought this up with IAmDragon that we shouldn't push out this large update for various reasons.

Considering both our main editors for Island Defense don't feel this version is ready to be hosted on ENT.60, can we close this thread? I think we've determined if this map is ready to be hosted on ENT or not. With more testing I would like to play this on ENT, but I think the general consensus for the people who understand and edit the map is that it's just not ready yet.

Taking my comments out of context is something I really do not like. I'd politely like to ask you to not do that again.

[Hash]

@remixer I apologize for that, and I don't want there to be any confusion about this, do you feel that this version is ready to be hosted onto ENT.60 as is, or do you feel it needs some work before being released?

[Remixer]

We've worked on the version for months, been testing the changes made over the course of implementing them and past few weeks have been purely testing so I see no reason not to upload it. Sure, many bugs will occur, but they will occur whether or not we upload it now or in a week. So in my opinion the new version could be uploaded already.