Change your ban algorithm for legion TD. #2

[David-Brevik]

Since you just instantly put my last thread into the archives, without letting me give you any response, I need to post this same thread again.. Why do you not let me have a discussion with you? Very unprofessional.

~~~~~~~Original Post~~~~~~~
Love ENT and love how you guys host good games. Don't change that.

Probably the most popular game right now on ENT is legion TD. The most popular mode is prophet. You get some random towers. You have to make the most of those towers. Love it. Can't complain much.

If you happen to get bad towers, however, you try to make the best of them. You work with what u got, maybe reroll early if they are absolutely terrible.

Well, guess what, you got stuck with shitty towers. You try your best to make the most of them. You barely even income, because your towers are shit. You keep leaking because your towers are bad. This is not fun.

Well, this happened to me, and I decided that I should probably just leave the game. I hate leaking every round. I also hate being a nuisance on the team, because they will certainly lose them the game if I am leaking every single round.

Only makes sense to leave the game. So, I get banned for a day for leaving the game. This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. First of all, my team probably doesn't want me there at all because I am leaking every round and they get zero gold for my leaks. Second, I don't want to be there as well, because I enjoy killing my rounds, getting good income, and not being a nuisance on the team. (Keep in mind that most games I play are not like this, but occasionally you just get unlucky)

So, ENT, with this ban, you are basically telling me that I should stay in the game despite my bad rolls / leaks and fuck over my whole team and probably lose the game for them, just do I don't get banned. That seems like such terrible logic, and it needs to be changed immediately. Especially with how low population the wc3 community is getting, this matters now more than ever. You end up shunning people like me who get banned for being logical and leaving a game when it makes complete sense to leave it.

I understand that you are probably trying to prevent people from just immediately leaving the game when they get bad rolls. I understand there needs to be a deterrent from just leaving the game immediately for whatever reason. But please don't punish people for making smart decisions which benefit the player and the team as a whole. It is extremely upsetting, and makes me want to never play an ENT hosted game again
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~Your Response~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So what you're suggesting is to remove autobans for leavers who are unable to make good out of a bad situation?

Do note, you're expected to stay in-game until the game is finished, drawn, or your team has forfeited. Everyone in the game has the same chances with regards to tower rolls. It's what you do with that roll and as a team; to see if you're able to overcome your opponents.

Legion TD Mega is a competitive map, and thus it has autoban enabled.
Having autoban disabled, it can be abused by users, even if their intentions are innocent.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I did not suggest any solution to the problem. Can we agree that there is a problem with the banning algorithm, when you are leaking every single round? You build the best towers every single round, and you still keep leaking.

Your team wants you to leave the game, but you can't, because you get banned for leaving? I hate to repeat myself, but did you read my whole comment here? This is a problem. Your team wants you gone, and you do not enjoy this situation either. So please, dont ban someone for leaving in this situation. Something needs to be fixed here.

I'll repeat myself. It makes sense, at a certain point, given your RNG, (and maybe your stupidity in the towers you built) to leave the game since you are no longer helping your team. Your blind 'you're banned if you leave at any point during the game' is so primitive and needs to be improved.

[Yarragon]

If I were you I'd give it up. Around here it's "Rules are rules sorry." and even if you're not having fun you're expected to stick it out and do as your told. You either !ignore everyone flaming you and telling you to leave, or leave and deal with a couple days off.

Also note, as long as your stay % is above what Autoban looks for, it wont hit you. This is a pretty ridiculously high number, but you're still given a free pass here and there.

The leaving rules have always been debated, among many of the games they host, and someone is always going to try and get them changed somehow, at which point ENT has pretty much said, "We're leaving them as is, deal with it." unless there's a solid reason to change said rule. (See: the recent Island Defense rule change, and how we requested they add a !draw or !ff command to the bot because of the rule update being somewhat disliked.)

If you really want them to change something, garner community support. That's the best way to do things.

[David-Brevik]

Its not just about me having fun mate. Its about me thinking logically and looking at the situation for how it is. If your team wants you gone because you're leaking every round, and you hate fucking over your team by staying, what is the point in staying in that situation? Why get punished for leaving when u are actually HELPING your team by leaving?

The current ban algorithm incentivizes you to fuck over your team just to prevent your own ban if you are leaking every round.

I am a computer programmer. And if this were my programming logic, I would be fired immediately. Get your shit together ENT. It is extremely embarassing, and makes an already small wc3 community potentially even more divided. For starters, I feel like I did the right thing by leaving (and making my team have a better chance at winning) yet I'm banned and can't play tonight with a few friends. It almost makes me want to just hop off warcraft 3 and get into a new game. Stop being lazy.

I care about the warcraft 3 community. I will even help you. Just let me know.

[Unitil]

As noted in the previous topic, there is no means of changing the algorithm for what you're suggesting. The autoban system bans the first leaver (among other reasons for autoban), be it disconnecting or leaving voluntarily. There is nothing that differentiates the two, and the bots are also unable to differentiate someone who has a "bad tower roll".

The previous suggestion was denied as there simply is no means of programming the bots to specifically allow users with "bad rolls", to leave whenever they feel like. This also is not a flaw in and of itself. Our rules are very simple in the fact that you're expected to stay until the end of the game, be it losing/winning, draw, or !ff.

http://wiki.entgaming.net/index.php?title=EntGaming:Rules

Do not leave before the game has certainly ended, especially if no other player has left.

Also, I suggest disabling your VPN and not trying to dodge your in-game ban. Instead, try to make an appeal.

The use of any utility that hides your real IP (proxies/vpns, etc.).

Appeal section of the forum:
https://entgaming.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=7

[Quetra]

What unitil said pretty much covers it, but I also see no reason why that would excuse you from punishment for leaving anyway. Getting a bad roll is part of the game. You can still play even if you are not an asset to your team as you would be with a good roll. Just because you might be increasing your teams chance of winning (debatable in many circumstances) doesnt make leaving fine anyway, its still ruining the overall game balance for both teams. Besides people who leave after a bad roll generally are doing so because it's frustrating for themselves not to help the team. Furthermore what is a good or bad roll is extremely subjective.

It's also not clear what your actual suggestion is. How can we change an automated system to take into account something subjective? What are you actually suggesting?

[David-Brevik]

Okay, first off, can we both agree that it is wrong that you should HAVE to stay in a game that, if you stay, will most almost certainly lose your team the game? If we can't agree on that then I fear we can't move on, and we have nothing further to talk about. If you think that any person should be forced to stay in a game that will lose your team the game simply to prevent yourself from getting banned, I want nothing further to do with ENT. I don't think you would think that though, you seem like a rational human being.

I guess after reading your second paragraph, it seems that the wc3 API is limited (I haven't done any wc3 programming myself, so I don't know what kind of information you have access to). If this is the 'best you can do', then I accept it. If this is just the way things have to be, then is there a way I can reasonably appeal a ban, given that I just tried to help my team out?

[David-Brevik]

What unitil said pretty much covers it, but I also see no reason why that would excuse you from punishment for leaving anyway. Getting a bad roll is part of the game. You can still play even if you are not an asset to your team as you would be with a good roll. Just because you might be increasing your teams chance of winning (debatable in many circumstances) doesnt make leaving fine anyway, its still ruining the overall game balance for both teams. Besides people who leave after a bad roll generally are doing so because it's frustrating for themselves not to help the team. Furthermore what is a good or bad roll is extremely subjective.

It's also not clear what your actual suggestion is. How can we change an automated system to take into account something subjective? What are you actually suggesting?

Yeah I dont think people leaving after bad rolls is a good thing. We both agree on that. I just want to prevent the situation where someone is in an un-recoverable situation and is forced to stay in the game. This results in their team losing the game, and the person who is forced to stay in the game having a shitty ass experience.

Maybe you could take the game time into consideration. That would prevent people from immediately leaving the game. Do you have access to how many leaks a person has had in the game (considering how many kills the adjacent player has had, to prevent people who team up from abusing this mechanic)?

[Unitil]

Let’s put this into terms of more current games, such as DotA 2 and League of Legends.

Both games punish you for leaving, even if you’re behind and not a asset to your team. It is no excuse leaving early, and usually leaves you temporarily banned from queuing on their services for an amount of time.

That system is the exact same with regards to leaving on our bots. Our rules and theirs are the same in that manner.

LoL leaver buster
https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752714-LeaverBuster-FAQ

DotA 2 abandonment
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Stats

Overall it’s not a flawed system, it is the same as those you’d find in popular MOBA games as described above.

Our durations for bans have been thought through and are there to discourage users from leaving games early.

[David-Brevik]

Let’s put this into terms of more current games, such as DotA 2 and League of Legends.

Both games punish you for leaving, even if you’re behind and not a asset to your team. It is no excuse leaving early, and usually leaves you temporarily banned from queuing on their services for an amount of time.

That system is the exact same with regards to leaving on our bots. Our rules and theirs are the same in that manner.

LoL leaver buster
https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752714-LeaverBuster-FAQ

DotA 2 abandonment
https://dota2.gamepedia.com/Stats

Overall it’s not a flawed system, it is the same as those you’d find in popular MOBA games as described above.

Our durations for band ahave been thought through and a re there to discourage users from leaving games early.

It is so clear that we cannot have a serious intellectual discussion here. I have brought up some serious points, and you have not addressed a single one. Have you even read a single thing that I"ve said? I have lost so much respect for ENT after posting on here.

This kind of 'copy paste, didn't even bother reading your previous comment' response makes me so sad, because I love warcraft 3, and the community deserves better than this. I am a realist. I see something wrong with the way things are working, and I want to point it out. The things I have pointed out here are so obvious that a retarded person could notice it. Yet you haven't even addressed it a single time. Does the person who made this website realize how unintelligent their moderators are? So embarassing how things are working around here. Makes me very sad.

I care a lot about the warcraft 3 community which I even bothered posting here. You guys host a lot of games. If you guys are banning people in your games for being smart and making good decisions, which benefit their teams even, (as I've mentioned in the previous 10 comments, which none of you have even addressed) that is not a good system. That's all I'm saying. Again, I haven't programmed on wc3 so i'm not sure what kind of information you guys have access to.

Are there any programmers that I can speak with on here who can give me something intelligent to work with? I am trying to give you guys the benefit of the doubt but you aren't really giving me much to work with here.

[Unitil]

What you're requesting is a system that doesn't punish users who leave later in the game, for reasons pertaining to them being "behind" in their respective game. Yes, I've actually been reading everything you've noted up till this point.

What you're suggesting is changing our banning algorithm, while ignoring our one rule that i've pasted for the third time now.

Do not leave before the game has certainly ended, especially if no other player has left.

Some things to keep in mind regarding our autoban system;
Ban durations are affected by the users

1. General stay percent across all games
2. The time the user left the game
   • A user that leaves at 100/2300 versus 2100/2300 will receive a much longer ban duration in comparison.
3. Age of the account
   • new player leaver is a thing
4. Some other factors

I've also posted counter arguments/links, pointing towards much more popular games, that have taken steps against users that leave before a game is done. None of which is copy-pasted as you've suggested. This is based off personal knowledge, and are only two platforms that have implemented such systems. There are likely many others that have similar systems in place.

If you wish to lookup more info regarding how information is transferred between the bot/map or even the back end coding for the bots, I'd lookup the following:

• Ghostpp - https://github.com/uakfdotb/ghostpp/tree/master/
• ENT Ghost - https://github.com/uakfdotb/ent-ghost
• W3MMD (Warcraft 3 Map Meta Data) - https://www.ghostpp.com/forum/index.php?topic=8.0

[Yarragon]

@unitil

My only residing comment on the auto-ban / leaving topic is this.

You brought up the League of Legends and DotA2 argument, and while I 100% agree with those systems, you're not inherently punished for leaving games unless it's CONSISTENT and over the course of a short period of time. You're allowed to leave 1-2 games in which an emergency arises, you're no longer having fun, or you simply wish to stop playing.

DotA2 specifically just bars you from re-quing for 15 minutes or so on the first attempt, it doesn't outright ban a user from playing for 3 days. That's overkill. I also understand that the system ENT uses is... less than perfect, but you DO NOT get that 1-2 game grace window, nor do you get that, "no queing for a few minutes since you left, go get a snack or take care of that emergency." It jumps right into the 2-3 day ban period, in which case you're required to come to the forums, write an appeal, and wait for a moderator to respond. In which time the ban has already probably expired.

Edit: To the OP - Unitil is probably the closest thing ENT has to an actual developer. As far as I'm aware he's the one that spends the most time back-end on the bots and the website. I don't talk to him personally so I can't tell you his background, but there is no official developer for ENT Staff. In fact, as far as I remember (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong here, Staff. It's been literal years since I've interacted with them.) Arty was a total amateur with basic knowledge on actual coding that happened to be decent with scripting. They then spammed ghost bots until their website caught on because no one could find a game that *wasn't* hosted by ENT, and merged with the only other group that was hosting at the time (BGN.)

[Merex]

Would like to note that autoban goes as low as 2-4 hours, so this whole "insta-ban 2-3 days" can be put to rest.

[Yarragon]

Would like to note that autoban goes as low as 2-4 hours, so this whole "insta-ban 2-3 days" can be put to rest.

I was unaware of that, but I've actually never seen a ban lower than 24 hours outside of one of you doing a warning ban by hand.

[Zeratul]

Would like to note that autoban goes as low as 2-4 hours, so this whole "insta-ban 2-3 days" can be put to rest.

I think hes mentioning the LTD Autoban (which does ban the 1st leaver for 2 days) - i recall that came from a suggestion, due to ppl abusing it (whenever they disliked their rolls, left, forcing a draw and barely getting banned); With that being said, yes usually autoban for disconnecting isn't that strict (unless you have a lot of recent autobans, low stay %, etc.)

And quite frankly if you're gonna leave whenever you have shit towers (or a roll you don't know), you should first ask your team for help: Most of them have been in ur position before, and might know a thing or two to overcome it (whether you suicide or not), so leaving is never a solution (specially when you wont learn anything from it), therefore i rly cant agree with your reason for this suggestion.

PS: Regarding the note made about "usually autobans expire before a moderator replies" .. Mods do this voluntarily, and you can't expect them to be 24/7 waiting to serve you (specially when some of them are caused by you leaving the game voluntarily, due to no reason at all, or simply ragequit), and for most legit appeals (due to lagging/disconnects), there's solutions to it, which prevents 90% of the cases - also known as Gproxy.

So you can either apply to be a moderator and help others, or just bear with it, and trust me, being a moderator can be quite a pain in the ass sometimes (when after you're done with your shit, you come online to volunteer some time to help, and you get some of the most ... "unique" characters, who happens to lack manners and respect for people's free time) -> On LoL or DotA2 you don't even get to appeal your bans, you simply wait it out, and QQ somewhere else

[Yarragon]

@zeratul

I wasn't complaining, I was simply pointing out a common case on a lot of appeals is all. And believe me, I wouldn't ever want to be a moderator. Simply because I can't help but call those "interesting characters" as you put it out on their stupidity or disrespect. I was simply taking the chance to engage in discussion on the topic before this is inevitably denied and moved to the archive section. The fact that I haven't seen an auto-ban below 24 hours probably stems from the fact that I mainly play Island Defense, which has it disabled, and LTD, which has it set rather high...