Dagon Spec

[nitromon]

Not braggin', posted this b/c this is what a typical dagon spec game gets from the toxic audience (both teams). People are so quick to judge without thinking things through.

4v5, won only 13 elo, 18-2-20.

Without dagon, I have to wait 30+ mins to contribute. That was the whole point of going dagon. AT 30-40 mins, Spectre is yuge regardless of what items you get him anyways. I actually sold the dagon earlier this game b/c I wanted a basher. 1600 elo ES on our team, pretty useless until mid game. But absolutely 0 fundamentals, doesn't even know why I got book against a team of 3 invisibles. Blue was completely useless. Dusa was the only other decent player.

https://entgaming.net/openstats/dota/game/10183925/


(01:47 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: spec isnt tank?
(01:55 / Allied) iball: i dont build him as tank
(02:06 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: buil him as tank
(02:07 / Allied) iball: i build him as assasin

(11:26 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: why the fuck spec has dagon
(11:47 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: what!!!
(12:03 / Allied) 5$XotPVnHXmjS$7: ?????????????????????????
(12:03 / All) VladTheImpaler: spec went dagon
(12:07 / All) 5$XotPVnHXmjS$7: yes
(12:09 / All) 5$XotPVnHXmjS$7: idiot
(12:13 / All) 5$XotPVnHXmjS$7: thats why you will lose

(13:55 / All) HowDidI_kr: we have no hope ever since u got dagon
(14:18 / All) HowDidI_kr: i dun even want to support you even if im supporting hero
(17:11 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: noob shit
(17:16 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: another noob fucking idiot in my team
(17:23 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: !ignore iba

(18:07 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: !sd ibal
(18:09 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: ccc
(18:12 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: what a noob stacker
(18:40 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: dude
(18:42 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: just ignore him
(18:46 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: he is not worth to talk

(20:45 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: fuycking
(20:48 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: fuckin
(20:54 / All) iball: WHO IS LAUGHING AT DAGON SPEC NOW?!
(20:54 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: why the fuck spec got all the kills
(20:57 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: fucking team killer

(21:16 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: omfg
(21:20 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: he got book
(21:53 / All) HowDidI_kr: congratz guys
(21:56 / All) HowDidI_kr: our mid gone
(22:05 / All) HowDidI_kr: and our spec got dagon and necro book
(22:14 / All) HowDidI_kr: ty
(22:19 / All) HowDidI_kr: lucky to play with u all
(ES doesn't understand why I went book vs 3 invisible enemies)

(25:22 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: but we cant win
(25:24 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: look our spec
(25:27 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: stealing all kills
(25:31 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: getting fucking book
(25:42 / All) HowDidI_kr: please end
(25:48 / All) HowDidI_kr: we have necro book and dagon spec

(25:30 / All) ENT.VokZ-: im bored
(25:31 / All) ENT.VokZ-: can you ff

(35:37 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: imagin desua got
(35:40 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: those spec's kill
(35:45 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: we would a won
(35:46 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: at this point
(35:54 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: spec that little shit
(35:59 / Allied) HowDidI_kr: stole all kils by dagon
(36:02 / Allied) VladTheImpaler: a lot of brainless ppl on pub games
(Actually, I got most of my kills from my passive, ES doesn't even understand that. Had I not gone dagon, we would be playing 3v5 and lost the game at 30 min mark. Dusa wasn't able to get any kills that early with her abilities anyways. A basic fundamental, I expected a 1600 elo player to know.)

(38:21 / Allied) ENT.VokZ-: were gonna win this trust me
(38:27 / Allied) ENT.VokZ-: get bkb legion
(41:50 / All) iball: im bored, u want to ff?

(46:50 / All) iball: u guys learn anything yet?

[FalenGa]

I have to agree with you. People are so quick to judge builds.

They do not adapt to the enemy team's heroes, they do not try to counter. They have their standard 6, maybe 7 items for each hero, and the whole "god bless our souls" attitude.

[Zeratul]

Kinda reminds me of the game we played the other day: https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10157314 (We did have a better team - except centaur, who called me useless at start and then he pretty much failed the entire game lel)

PS: Kinda funny he calls me useless, when he's the one who fed 0/6 solo mid razor the previous game vs me https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10157171 XD

[nitromon]

Haha, yeah that was a fun game. I can't believe you remember that one. Btw, I was also in that previous game in your link. I was Sylla. Since you were drow, so I went hero only to take advantage of the aura. I was surprised nobody was yelling at me.

I also like this one: https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10116761

Mr. Beerlord was in the game and I was nervous b/c I wanted to make a good impression.

[Zeratul]

Techies games are always fun XD its all about mind games (basically): even when your enemies know where your mines are, its all about leading them towards it (a simple techies moving towards them, in a certain way, will make them try to spread to avoid the suicide and walk over the mines XD)

And regarding sylla, its another way of playing him (ive seen a couple of sylla's who play only with the main hero, they don't even lvl the bear, and get the job done ^^ I for instance like the double basher strat - and pretty much despise the radiance bear: a good team can easily overcome that radiance bear easily)

Like Falenga said, most ppl follow the typical "known/common" builds, and never do different - thats why some games turn to be easy (when you're playing against stacked teams), cuz you know what they're gonna do, or how they're gonna play the minute they get X hero.

[nitromon]

Like Falenga said, most ppl follow the typical "known/common" builds, and never do different - thats why some games turn to be easy (when you're playing against stacked teams), cuz you know what they're gonna do, or how they're gonna play the minute they get X hero.

Yah that pretty much nailed it. It's too bad, b/c I think finding new ways to play a hero is the best part about this game. The item + hero combinations are virtually endless!

[Burnt]

Well i guess you guys could win TI with these builds kappa. There was a reason why gyro always got the same items in TI6.

Also noticed only ur own teammates were mentioned in ur pro dagon spe game (1.6K ES or something). Appreciate if u can comment on ur enemy teama too cuz they seem really pro.


If u r looking for variety and combinations u should be playing lod not dota lol

[nitromon]

Also noticed only ur own teammates were mentioned in ur pro dagon spe game (1.6K ES or something). Appreciate if u can comment on ur enemy teama too cuz they seem really pro.

Eh, it's not a pro dagon spec game persay. Actually I'm not happy with my attitude in the game. Most games like this, I ignore players immediately when they start toxicity. I think I got upset b/c it was an ez game in my opinion, 4v5 means we're going to load on cash and I know that dusa lategame is even more terrifying than spectre. Just wanted to show people, don't be too quick to judge someone's build, my teammates were railing on me from 1 min on simply because I refuse to build my hero they way they want it. If I was doing some strange build and doing poorly, that's one thing. But going 7-0 in the first 10-15 mins and they're still complaining, just too much. It's like games where someone picks techies and some players start crying "oh we lost!" "techies not a real hero" wahhhhh....

The reason I picked on the ES so much in the post is because he is a 1600 elo player, shouldn't be crying so much. I mean, blue complaining, he blows, so I could understand. But a 1600 elo player is ... above average, should be more cool headed and open minded. I have a higher expectation out of him b/c of his elo and kdr, he is the "technically" team leader, gotta lead by example not crying 2 min into the game. But that's just my personal opinion.

The opposing team were pretty good in sense of their hero choices and their strategy. The NS and SB gank combo + lothar LC forced our team to turtle for 30 mins, everyone was afraid to go out especially we're down a man and can't respond fast enough. Poor dusa was ganked continuously at bot tower by this combo. In addition, the voker is 1400 elo and pretty good, I played with him before. He is supporting their gank with sun strike. They were attempting to rax and finish around the 26-30 min mark, which from the conversation log seems they were aware not to let spec and dusa grow to 40 mins.

But again, this isn't one of those posts/replays of someone boasting how they single handedly won the game. It is always a team effort. The ES on his part, warded well and helped prevent more team death. Since the enemy team didn't get BKB, his stuns were crucial even at the end game. Dusa's ult is always appreciated, it is one of the most broken ults in the game. This dusa also went tank, allowing me to do damage and kill. People underestimate the damage necros do. My role was simple, help ganks and in teamfights, take out sniper or voker fast, then their melee heroes have no support.

The question is, would a standard spec do just as well in this game? I got that dagon at 7-8 mins, typically. Now if I farm tread, VG, BM... that would be at least ... 15-20 mins, that is with good farming. Since we were turtling and afraid to go out b/c of the enemy ganks, even that was unlikely. Now with BM+VG, how much could I really contribute to the team? If I turn on BM, they'll ignore me and aim for VS and ES as they have most of this game. Going DPS, say radiance, will take 15-20 mins as well and without IAS and some base items, still leaves spec very vulnerable. Dagon and book kills quickly and fast, especially on weak agil/int heroes.

I always prefer to farm heroes instead of creeps. Keeping your enemies down both in gold, level, and waiting. In a fight, TP in and take out crucial heroes such as range dps or support, changes the battle to favor your team. The dagon remained level 1 as I farm other necessary items. In this game, it didn't seem like I needed tank items at mid point since I wasn't dying, but a book was necessary. However, lategame, I wanted to be a little tankier so I went skadi then mjollnir, now with proper IAS, I got a basher. This now allows me to take on their melee head on, but my main job is still taking out that sniper or voker.

If u r looking for variety and combinations u should be playing lod not dota lol

Ahh, I'm too lazy to even switch to DOTA 2.

[EdgeOfChaos]

Spec dagon means you have 600 HP until you make your next item. And it doesn't help your illusions at all, unlike Radiance. The best items on spec are ones that your illusions can use to disrupt the enemy team. In a random pub you can do well with any garbage build sometimes.

[nitromon]

Spec dagon means you have 600 HP until you make your next item. And it doesn't help your illusions at all, unlike Radiance. The best items on spec are ones that your illusions can use to disrupt the enemy team.

That's true, but it isn't just about items, but item + time + effectiveness = how much you contribute. I have tried rushing diffusal first, which would fit your description above, support your illusions, etc... and it is relatively the same cost as a dagon.

However, diffusal, like basher or crit, or any dps, requires you to engage, which means takes you longer to kill someone. Finishing dagon at level 7 with only boots means you're soft. You ult when your team is fighting. In a team fight and everyone is confused especially by your ult, you only need to take a sniper down to 500-600 hp, then dagger + dagon to finish. Use those money to buy your base items up - tread, ring of Aq, poor man's shield if you want, poison orb, ... etc... should be relatively easy and finish within... 2-3 mins. With just those items itself, your spec is already pretty decent for an agil hero (due to his passive if you got it to level 4), then you farm your other core items depending on the game.

What makes dagon work better for spec than SB is that first his ult is instantaneous, allows you to clean up enemies better. But more so, his 3rd passive ability gives him both defensive abilities and offense. SB... with just a dagon and boots is very squishy and vulnerable. But a spectre with dagon and boots is relatively... decent for an agil. But again, the main point is quick strike, take out key heroes in team fights or clean up. I've even tped into enemy base before they reach the fountain, bam and kill, then tp out before their SB can even respond. (Now I think about it, kinda like Furion except more accurate since no guess work required) I'll post that replay later.

Here it is: https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10176404

I like this game b/c people are much more open minded on my team, no crying about my build. But it is also hilarious b/c I kept picking on their sniper and he was pretty frustrated. Hey, a sniper on a team with 4 tanks, gotta keep him down.

(34:35 / All) IlIlIlIlIlIlIlI: fuckign bitch
(34:45 / All) giantpenus: sorry brah, its my job

[EdgeOfChaos]

Relies on your enemies being garbage and unable to aoe down a bunch of illusions + hero (or simply spot the hero who uses a skill and kill it). That game linked has 800 elo, 800 elo, 700 elo, and two people around 1000. First game linked, all were low ELO but invoker. Invoker also bought refresher, which means he is gutter trash regardless of his ELO. You never got more than 15 per game, and you are a smurf, which means the real elo balance is probably like 25/5. I can go rapier on pit lord and beat a bunch of noobs, doesn't mean it's good.

Dagon is much worse than basically anything else you can make. It's fine as a meme item for smacking noobs only.

Why does everyone think you need to help your team early to do your well? Some heroes are meant for late game, it's ok to farm while your allies fight. A 600 hp spectre with boots shouldn't make a difference in your team fight.

[Sylvanas]

Stop trying to make dagon spectre happen. It's not going to happen.

[Zeratul]

Considering you still see slark's being picked in the wannabe inhouse league (and accomplish to stomp just as easy as on pubs - so much for the "high quality games" roflmao), spec dagon is acceptable as long as it works: He posted it simply to show that different builds do work, as long as you know how to play/use them (The most interesting, or actually funny, thing is when you see people trying to follow/copy your strategy, and fail, and then blame the strategy ^^)

[EdgeOfChaos]

He showed it works against complete noobs. As does literally anything you do. Look at that refresher orb on Invoker. Just look. If I ever lost to someone making refresher on Invoker, I would uninstall wc3 and demagnetize my hard drive. That's 6k down the drain for basically nothing. No kidding spec was able to win when he only wasted about 2.5k. I believe ShoC has won games with his classic game-throw build (5 battlefury), but that doesn't mean it's good either.

Also - learn to beat Slark if you're losing to it. Hint: nuke+slow (example: batrider) mid works pretty well for earlygamt shut down. With a decent team, slark should be np. For example, how about this "pro" slark: https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=9984806 , I even beat him with zero good teammates.

[Zeratul]

Look at that refresher orb on Invoker. Just look. If I ever lost to someone making refresher on Invoker, I would uninstall wc3 and demagnetize my hard drive. .

I guess thats how these ones felt https://entgaming.net/findstats.php?id=10068821 (completely offtopic, but felt like remembering this game - It should have been a loss to us, due to the hard feed by the other 2/3 dumbos, and altho most of the enemies had bkb, they still lost vs refresher invoker )

Note: I rarely get refresher either on invoker (tbh it was like the first time i got it in years of playing him lols), but at that point, it was the only item that made sense to get, to counter the feed from the other 3 (Mix that with the jakiro veil and spells, and we basically won what was a lost game)