Counter Guide: Legion Commander

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nitromon
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Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby nitromon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 1:51 am

Purpose: LC is one of those "noob" heroes, meaning it really takes no discipline to play him. But he really isn't as OP as say Void, Slark, or even Spectre. Most of the time people simply don't counter him correctly. For that reason, a lot of people play LC, practically every single game so they can pick on noobies and then brag about it. Time to change that.

What Makes Him Cheap: His 3rd ability, the passive. This is the only real ability to counter b/c even duel is not all that powerful. It is like a stun, but only works if you are 1v1 or fighting weak heroes. So to counter LC, you need to counter this 3rd ability. The ability is similar to Axe's passive helix. The more he is attacked, the higher the chance he'll get an increase IAS with massive lifesteal. He can be redline and instantly regenerate all his hitpoint.

Hero Counters: LC is vulnerable to stunners and casters. This is also the reason LC will duel stunners and casters. This means you need at least 2 or 3. This doesn't mean you need a bunch of INT heroes, there are STR stunners too. But not just stunners, LC is vulnerable to nukes. Remember, we're only required to counter that 3rd passive ability. Other protector heroes can also counter him such as Roof, Oracle, Phoenix, etc... Range DPS is also good, but only when he's not attacking anyone b/c otherwise you're just helping his passive.

Item Counters: If you are a support hero and you're afraid of being picked off, you need a ghost scepter or euls. Don't be cheap about spending money on defense. I know many people only rush key items. But the point of the game is to stay alive and deny your enemy food. Before anything though, most LC go lothar. You must buy early dust and wards, don't be cheap. It will be worth it. Preventing him from getting easy pick offs will keep his level and damage in check.

However, the best counter item early is actually a dagon. Dagon is one of the most misunderstood items in the game. People think caster items are only for casters. Items are either chosen to enhance your heroes abilities OR supplement their weakness. When I say dagon counter, I mean dagon on your non-supporting heroes. If you have 3 support heroes with nukes and stuns, LC will be targetting one of them for duel. He won't be expecting your other 2 heroes to have 400 damage dagon. When LC goes redline, you want to finish him off with that dagon or he'll regain his hp fast.

Now, of course, not every hero can benefit from a dagon. But consider this, many STR and AGI heroes can use a larger mana pool, right? It actually makes less sense for INT heroes to get dagon when they already have larger mana pools and they're going to get much higher level INT items. Dagon is meant for non-INT heroes to supplement their mana pool and giving them a 400 damage nuke.

Another reason is dagon's surprisingly cheap price. For its abilities, it is extremely affordable and can be easily bought by level 6 in a dual lane. Think about all kinds of items you can purchase by level 6, and how much each increases your hero's effectiveness. You can get a dagon by level 6 without having much of a decrease in your farm timing on your hero's key items. In fact, used properly, dagon can help you farm and make up for its own cost by killing heroes.

These are early item counters to keep LC in check, so he doesn't grow. It will force him to go BKB, which again is far better than him getting his key items b/c LC is item dependent and needs items to be effective. He may also go BM if the range DPS are giving trouble or even the nukes. Again, far better than him getting other items b/c BM is not really useful if you do not have the HP to tank. BMs are easily counterable with euls and ghost, just delay until it turns off.

Late game counters will involve guinsoo, etherals, etc... b/c even if he uses BKB/BM, it has a time limit. If he doesn't get any kills in that time and the BKB wears off, he's done. For carry heroes, melee should definitely get basher and IAS. Linken can counter duel, but it isn't worth it in my opinion b/c it can be triggered by any point spells and seems awfully expensive just to counter duel when duel is not even that powerful. That's about it. He's not really that hard to counter.

Strategy Counter: Once the lane are down, your team needs to stick and watch out for each other. Duel is useless in most team fights and when you have enough supporting each other. Remember to dust and ward early for Lothar LCs, deny him easy picks.

When he duels an ally, you want to disable him of course. If he BKBs, it is actually better NOT to attack him until the duel is finished or BKB wears off. Remember, each time you attack, you increase his chance of getting that IAS and lifesteal. Your teammate getting dueled has a higher chance of survival if you didn't intervene in some cases. If you are caught in a team fight and he duels someone, focus on taking out his allies such as supporters or weak range heroes. So even if he wins the duel, he'll be left alone and you can finish him off. Many people don't seem to be expecting this. I do it all the time, I see a teammate getting dueled and I can't disable, so I look for their Rhasta or Sniper and take easy kills. Remember, duel or not... you don't focus on the tank, always take out the easy kills.

Summary: This is pretty much it. He's not that hard to counter. I think most of the time his "reputation" is more scary than the actual hero. Most people just get scared when they see LC b/c they don't want to get dueled. This coupled with most people simply don't bother getting correct counter items or even bother buying wards and dusts. Spend the money on the right items, keep LC down and keep him in check, deny him early pick offs and he is just like any other hero.

Now go out there and own some LCs. Tired of seeing this hero around. :D

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby Sylvanas » Tue Aug 15, 2017 3:30 am

Good lcs go dagger, not lothars. Of course those aren't the ones you see in every apem game.

The claim that dagon is meant for agi and str heroes because it gives mana and they can use more of it is utterly ridiculous. If that was true, then it would mean every other high mana/int item is meant for str and agi heroes, which is just batshit insanity. Most str and agi heroes have lower mana requirements in the first place, so in many cases they don't even necessarily need it more. The boring truth is that the items meant for your hero are those that align with their primary stat, with some exceptions dictated by common sense. Shivas on undying because he can spam more spells with extra mana and the rest of the bonuses work well with the hero? Fine. Sheep stick with troll because he has low mana? Insanity. Dagon on 90% of heroes? Also insanity. Any game that's won because of dagon sb, dagon spectre, dagon bs and all the other questionable dagon carries would have been won just as easily normally, but you can't expect the dagon versions to scale anywhere as well as the regular ones in a close game. You need real items for real games.

Anyway, no mention of halberd? Everything about that item is literally a direct counter to lc in general. You get the combination of high hp and evasion to survive duels against you and disarm to ruin his duels against others. You don't need stuns or hexes or any type or hard disable against duel. Disarm disables the only thing duel doesn't disable itself, his attacking, while leaving him open to anything.
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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby nitromon » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:45 am

Sylvanas wrote:Good lcs go dagger, not lothars. Of course those aren't the ones you see in every apem game.


Exactly. That's why I avoid giving hints and item details on LC. This is not a guide to how to play LC. This is a guide to reduce LCs from every game.

I wouldn't say blink is a better choice. It is an alternative. All items have their advantages and drawbacks. Lothar gives LC damage and IAS aside from speed and invisible. But it is counterable with dust and wards. Blink is a 2250 item for only 1 ability and gives your hero no additive bonuses in terms of damage, hp, IAS, anything. It also doesn't help you escape if you are in trouble.

The claim that dagon is meant for agi and str heroes because it gives mana and they can use more of it is utterly ridiculous. If that was true, then it would mean every other high mana/int item is meant for str and agi heroes, which is just batshit insanity.


I specifically said 2 things. 1) not every hero can benefit from a dagon. 2) It is a cheap item for its effectiveness and "wouldn't be much a setback for STR/AGI heroes to farm their key items."

Yes, I've also seen Tiny go guinsoo, or other AGI and STR heroes go guinsoo. It is not that unusual. Some AGI, such as clinkz also like going orchid, which is an INT item. So I wouldn't exactly say it is ridiculous. It is an early cheap item that increases your manapool early game and gives you a 400 pt blast.

Most str and agi heroes have lower mana requirements in the first place, so in many cases they don't even necessarily need it more.


I'm talking about early to mid game. Most AGI/INT heroes are depending on some support on their team with manaboot most of the game. Axe and pudge would not be a good dagon candidate (though I've seen dagon pudges), but I've often seen these two heroes with mana problems. Some axes/pudges even get their own manaboots for this occasion. Roof would be another one and even the Centaur has very low manapool. I would even put Spectre and PA on that list. Early PA gets frustrated when they run out of mana for that final blink for the kill. How about Sven? Seen many Svens with soulrings.

The boring truth is that the items meant for your hero are those that align with their primary stat, with some exceptions dictated by common sense.


You get items that "you need." This need can either be enhancing your abilities and stats or it compensate what you are lacking. I'm not talking about all lategame items. Most games don't last to the point where you max your items. This is why again, I stated dagon is attainable at hero level 6, compare that to other items of the same gold requirement. It is a good buy at level 6 for some heroes. I never said to level it to dagon 5.

Likewise, I always tell support INT heroes to get more HP. Because that's what they're lacking. By mid game, everyone should be well above 1000 hp. In those times, I still see some Lion or Rhasta running around with 700-800 hp b/c they went euls or some int item that doesn't give them any more hp. Though there are a lot of options for INT heroes to choose from in terms of hp such as blood stone, linken, and even guinsoo and aghnim. It wouldn't actually surprise me to see one getting a VG. Why? B/c a VG is roughly a 2300 item, far cheaper than the other items and it gives other defensive abilities.


"dagon sb, dagon spectre, dagon bs and all the other questionable dagon carries"


Refer to previous response. I never stated "to carry" with a dagon.


Anyway, no mention of halberd? Everything about that item is literally a direct counter to lc in general. You get the combination of high hp and evasion to survive duels against you and disarm to ruin his duels against others. You don't need stuns or hexes or any type or hard disable against duel. Disarm disables the only thing duel doesn't disable itself, his attacking, while leaving him open to anything.


There are a lot of items in this game and a lot more items to counter LC. People tend to talk about items they use. I don't use halbert nor armlet. No particular reason. But yes, that would be another counter item. However, I'm not entirely sure halbert works during duel. The reason is because Oracle's "fate" spell does not work on LC during a duel. It use to, but at some point they programmed his duel to be more powerful and negates some spells.

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby Merex » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:29 pm

nitromon wrote:Purpose: LC is one of those "noob" heroes, meaning it really takes no discipline to play him. But he really isn't as OP as say Void, Slark, or even Spectre. Most of the time people simply don't counter him correctly. For that reason, a lot of people play LC, practically every single game so they can pick on noobies and then brag about it. Time to change that.

What Makes Him Cheap: His 3rd ability, the passive. This is the only real ability to counter b/c even duel is not all that powerful. It is like a stun, but only works if you are 1v1 or fighting weak heroes. So to counter LC, you need to counter this 3rd ability. The ability is similar to Axe's passive helix. The more he is attacked, the higher the chance he'll get an increase IAS with massive lifesteal. He can be redline and instantly regenerate all his hitpoint

Starting a guide off by calling a hero "noob" isn't really ideal. And I'd have to beg to differ because while some may see LC as that cheap 1 skill hero, he actually does require a bit of farming, some early ganks and some proper items. He's also a situational hero while some may go deso/lothar/heart others go something different like buriza/skadi/bfly etc. or more casual situational items like bkb/bmail, really he's just another tank with the purpose of being able to hold his own and jump on the offensive.

I'd also have to beg to differ on his 3rd ability being his most "cheap" skill in his arsenal. Because there isn't 1 spell in particular that stands out to LC. Yes, his passive does greatly change the tides of battles when he's being attacked but if he's up against any caster or stunner then his passive is next to useless. Also, when being the player of the LC, most of the time his passive won't be the direct result of a successful duel-gank, it'll mostly come from his secondary press the attack which both increases his AS and a small heal. In-fact, I'd say his second skill is one of the reasons why he's such a fierce tank.

nitromon wrote:Item Counters: If you are a support hero and you're afraid of being picked off, you need a ghost scepter or euls.[...]BMs are easily counterable with euls and ghost, just delay until it turns off.[...]Linken can counter duel, but it isn't worth it in my opinion b/c it can be triggered by any point spells and seems awfully expensive just to counter duel when duel is not even that powerful.[...]

Ghost and euls won't matter when you're dueled. If the LC has dagger, you'll never see him coming. If he has lothars and you have wards, you'd still need to time ghost pretty quickly and euls is only a temporary "hold-off" from being dueled. You can euls LC and run for your life but if he has dagger then he'll just blink to you once more, if he has lothar and you're out of wards rip. Where is the halberd mention? It's a great support item and can easily disable an LC. Provides evasion and a bit of str too. Also, another bmail counter is bkb.. which isn't directly ideal for supports but in situational building it's necessary.

Linkens is a great support item and a great counter to LC. Sure it can be triggered by other spells but in terms of lane farming, being alone, no LC can touch you. Why wouldn't a support wanna get linkens anyways? It's good regen, provides stats and it's passive is icing on the cake. Everything about duel is powerful especially when you're a squishtown support like ww, daz, cm. The expense shouldn't even be an issue since the items leading up to linkens are beneficial in the early run like perseverance, ultimate orb. It's a helpful item and should be one of the first items recommended on your counter crusade.
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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby Burnt » Tue Aug 15, 2017 12:47 pm

Sylvanas wrote:Anyway, no mention of halberd? Everything about that item is literally a direct counter to lc in general. You get the combination of high hp and evasion to survive duels against you and disarm to ruin his duels against others. You don't need stuns or hexes or any type or hard disable against duel. Disarm disables the only thing duel doesn't disable itself, his attacking, while leaving him open to anything.

Disarm doesn't work during duels. pretty sure LC can also dispel disarm with his 2nd.
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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby Sylvanas » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:10 pm

Burnt wrote:Disarm doesn't work during duels. pretty sure LC can also dispel disarm with his 2nd.

You're right, it doesn't. It used to and it does again in a version that may likely not ever come to wc3. It's really not that good then, at least not for duels. :/

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Dueling units now fully ignore disarms and ethereal state.

nitromon wrote:I wouldn't say blink is a better choice. It is an alternative. All items have their advantages and drawbacks. Lothar gives LC damage and IAS aside from speed and invisible. But it is counterable with dust and wards. Blink is a 2250 item for only 1 ability and gives your hero no additive bonuses in terms of damage, hp, IAS, anything. It also doesn't help you escape if you are in trouble.

Blink just suits him better. lc should have a bunch of things to activate just before dueling (press the attack, armlet, maybe blade mail or mjollnir) and doing so before blinking in makes more sense than doing it in front of target after breaking invis and getting disabled before starting the duel.

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby greenmtn » Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:21 pm

A nice counter to an lc player is axe. Just go mid vs the lc and spam with call and spin. He dies.

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby BeerLord » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:02 am

As a below average player tormented by the likes of legion and slark, I really appreciate this thread.

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby FollowingPath » Wed Aug 16, 2017 4:07 am

Just get a rapier. Legion will be too busy flaming and laughing and will forget to duel you -> ez kill
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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby IWinIfyoulose » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:16 am

greenmtn wrote:A nice counter to an lc player is axe. Just go mid vs the lc and spam with call and spin. He dies.


I think LC going forest more than mid to be honest.

I would say the best way to counter lc early is wards + tp,s prevent him from early kills. Heros like Bane Lion (as support) could disable him alot. Bane can even ulti him in bkb. Treant protector living armor also works very well vs LC´S duels

If someone buying linkens vs LC he can counter it with halberd (not a bad item to have either)

If you got LC in team, ask someone to pick bara (can counter their linkens with charge before he duel) also a good "pub hero"

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby divinerape » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:29 am

I rarely lose to an lc unless my team overfeeds extremely.
best counter to lc is clearly a linkens. cheaper counter is early bm but you would have to be quick about activating it right before getting dueled. third best counter is a basher. fourth best counter is hp, best scenario with a stun - centaur, dk, skeleton king, sven with an hp build. void is a good counter, but also have to be quick and own lc before he duels you. another idea is to buy wards and ward the shit out of jungle and own lc early game- no farm, no ownage later. silencer with a linkens and double ult is an extreme counter to lc later. sb is a great counter to lc at any point in the game- yes dagon on sb owns lc early hardcore

axe greatly becomes useless against lc later on


the one thing that makes lc extremely powerful is his solo pushing powers, I've won many many games by just simply pushing by myself when no one is paying attention

forgot about omni's ult (or two)... with a linkens to boot. makes lc completely useless

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby nitromon » Thu Aug 17, 2017 11:42 pm

Av1oN wrote:a lot of text


AHHHH!!!!! WHAT ARE YOU DOING!?!?! :shock: You're teaching people how to play LC!!! Stop it!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

ug, backfired!!! :cry:

----

Edit: Anyhow, here's a fun replay I thought I share, related to this thread.

https://entgaming.net/openstats/dota/game/9682970/

Yes, the guy named "godagon" is obviously me. ;) But I originally wasn't planning on a dagon b/c they have some heavy lategamers and I wanted to go lategame counter against them. However, early in the game I realized a few things.

- Our team has 4 lategame heroes, me included. I need a dagon early and fast in order to contribute early game. Any other build for spec will delay his effectiveness into late midgame to lategame.
- Also noticed our team was not doing well. Blue played amazingly, but LC dominated midsolo against him. Our bot was a disaster.
- I wasn't getting any farm at all, laning with a techies who takes the creep kills and also against Husk and Lich, I couldn't get close. So I had to farm heroes to get my items.
- Enemy had Axe, LC, and Tiny. 3 heroes with passive defensive abilities that I don't want to keep attacking.

I didn't particularly play well, made a lot of errors, but sound fundamentals allowed me to contribute and took the best player title of this game in an underdog fight against some major hard heroes and decent players. Imagine if a noob like me can do this with these fundamentals, what can pros out there with faster reflexes and better attentions can do. :lol:

I didn't get to counter LC much this game. He's smart, after I blasted him once, he avoided me like plague and fed off our other players. But I did get to blast Tiny and Axe several times. The dagon remained level 1, I use it to farm my key items. LC in this game got fed well and I couldn't catch up to him in the farm, but I think if the game lasted longer, my item choices will eventually give me the edge.

There are a few times you can see in this game that enemy heroes would've gotten away if I didn't have a dagon. A big part of going AGI dagon is going assassin strategy, hit, run, and clean up.

It is just a fun replay showing some of the aspects of items and counters mentioned in this thread. There are also barely any trash talk in this game, which are games I thoroughly enjoy. ;)

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby fgfe » Sun Aug 20, 2017 2:58 pm

Best ways to counter lc imo are defensive heroes that can protect the dueled targets (oracle wyvern dazzle bane Od)
Or carries a lc doesnt want to manfight (ta troll dusa lifestealer) because theyre simply too tanky or stronger.
The easiest counter is simply linkens which makes lc have to buy halberd which he will be too slow to use because hes trash :)

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Re: Counter Guide: Legion Commander

Postby nitromon » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:18 pm

fgfe wrote:Best ways to counter lc imo are defensive heroes that can protect the dueled targets (oracle wyvern dazzle bane Od)
Or carries a lc doesnt want to manfight (ta troll dusa lifestealer) because theyre simply too tanky or stronger.
The easiest counter is simply linkens which makes lc have to buy halberd which he will be too slow to use because hes trash :)


I totally agree, linken is not really effective against him considering the amount of money it cost and time to get it to counter just duel. In the replay I posted, I think another point I didn't mention was LC is only effective if he runs around picking off heroes early on. In that game he got big b/c he consistently had free food. I wasn't really worried in that game b/c I know that once we're in a teamfight, his effectiveness drops and we'll have the upper hand. This proved fatal for their team when we decided to gather to rax. Yes, LC can operate like any other tank in a team fight, but I think it has to do with LC players mentality. Most LCs are not good teamplayers as demonstrated in my replay, he played mostly a solo game all game. :lol:


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