DOTA Guide - Drow

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DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:07 am

I have not touched this hero for maybe 10-15 yrs, well except a few AREM games, but even so I typically repick her. I tried her once recently b/c 9 out of 10 Drows I see on Ent feeds with her. Sure, back then there weren't heroes like SB to contend with, and also her abilities have been modified, but I still think the main problem is in the fundamental understanding of this hero and item choices. I don't understand why I keep seeing Drows going MoM or Helm early game. It doesn't make any sense.


Hero Guide to Drow:
After reading up on the Drow's new abilities and tried it in games, I noticed she is a lot weaker early games and has severe weaknesses that require items to supplement. I guess she got "nerfed." However, her abilities also make her better in some regards, especially lategame. While in the old days, this hero was much more well rounded, the current version is better mid-late carry and severely weak early. The ability changes I've noticed is silence use to be like DP's but now it has a pushback, her aura is changed from straight % to agil based, and her ult has more agil but has a range limit. This hero is an agil range DPS, flanker (with lothar), and assassin role.


Wrong Way to Build:
So let's get right to it. Drow has severe weaknesses early - HP and manapool. The new pushback in silence gives her an escape option, which is a good plus. But this hero has now a much higher natural DPS gain, so what she really needs is HP, manapool, IAS, and some movement. She doesn't need lifesteal. Frankly I think any range hero with attack modifier such as frost arrow or flame arrow should not get another orb. If you're going to do that, then why bother research their attack modifier or pick that hero. And yes, I have seen Drows not getting frost arrows at all.

The reasons I've gotten from other players on Satanic is they say it is good for healing early and tanking later. Again, this is a 5v5 game and your hero has strength, weakness, and roles you want to play. I don't think one of Drow's roles is tank. Getting a 2000 gold item just so you can heal early in lane is a waste considering you could use that for your core items to supplement your weaknesses. Remember, when that melee hero runs within 400 range of you, you lose all that agil which are your main source of IAS/damage and you lose a lot of that damage aura. That satanic becomes weak. Either way, any range hero lategame is vulnerable to melee with fast IAS and bash even with satanic. You can counter with butterfly, but they'll counter with mkb. You know the dance. There is 0 reason to get helm --> satanic, considering what your hero really needs.

Now, MoM makes a little more sense in that you get the fast IAS and movement. But again, the trade off is 30% more damage taken on an already weak hero. The only time this works for your hero is when you are in a team gank or you're chasing down a weak hero. But still early game you don't have enough damage to take down tanks, nukers/disablers can disable you and run. And most importantly, getting MoM on a paper hero is just bad idea. Again, considering the cost, you can get items you actually need.

You also do not want to get early damage items. This hero already naturally has high DPS, this can sustain your hero for most of the game until lategame. Also, every agil item you get, increases IAS and damage.


Early Game: First 15-20 minutes
Start this hero with basic hero items - STR tread, RoA and you should be fine for the beginning. Your 1st item should be lothar. Most people already got it, but some people cringe and say this is a weak item which can be easily countered with dust. Though that is a valid rebuttal, however I still recommend it. Here's why.

Lothar does a lot more than give you invisible. It gives you IAS, damage, and movement. With heroes such as Drow, you need the invisible in order to flank enemy lines during team fights, which is where she is most valuable. While teams are engaged, you take out their Rhasta, Silencer, even agil DPS such as Clinkz or Sniper. Drow has great natural early DPS to take them out fast. Also, having a lothar makes the other team waste money and item slot on dusts.

After lothar, and moving into mid game, the 2nd item is actually SnY. Now, some may skip this if you feel you don't need extra movement, especially when you have lothar. However, I find that having a little faster movement allows her to position herself into position faster and quicker. Also, she's extremely vulnerable to melee heroes b/c they cancel 2 of her abilities. Yes, both her ult and it reduces her damage amplifer b/c it is now based on her agility. Also, the maim gives her a 2ndary slow to stack, for those times when you run out of mana for another frost arrow. I would recommend getting sange first as you desperately need HP and already has lothar.

Skills: You want level 1 frost and silence, but then up the damage aura all the way. Early game 3 sec silence is just fine as you can kill most weak heroes fast. Frost actually only gives movement reduction, doesn't give extra damage or reduce IAS. So it is only good for slowing heroes running away or moving on to you. Early game most heroes have some sort of boot and level 1 is more than enough especially when you have fast IAS to keep them frosty. Later they start having BoT and SnY, you would need the higher frost.


Mid Game: 15/20-30/35 minutes
I have NEVER seen anyone get the right core item for Drow. That item is SKADI. First complain I hear is, "but she has frost arrow!" Skadi gives you a lot more than just a frost. It gives you stats, IAS, bulk, some damage, manapool, basically everything your Drow needs and wants. There is NO reason not to get this. Prior to getting skadi, My level 11-15 Drow still only has 400-500 manapool. That goes away really quickly with a few frost arrows.

But there's more! Even with skadi, I still find myself low on mana after surviving in the map too long without going back to fountain. So this is when a 2nd frost comes in handy. Say you are engaged in a teamfight with only 200 mana. You cast silence and a few frost, you're out of mana. This is where skadi naturally kicks in, you don't even have to turn off the frost. Skadi will replace your missing frost and you keep going.

But wait! There's more! :lol: The new changes to Drow requires all her enemies to be outside the 400 range else she loses 2 abilities. Against a range, this is not a problem. Against a melee, big problem. The reason to get frost at all is because at level 4 it is a 60% movement reduction. No slow items in the game can match that. You want to use the pushback when they're at 400 to push them to 700, then kill them as they come closer to you. Most melee heroes you can handle, but what if it is a biggie tank hero? or Sb who charges right on to you, so even with push back, he is within 400? Turn off the frost arrow once they reached you and use skadi since skadi slow comes with IAS reduction.


Late Game: 35 min +
Now you can actually skip SnY, but I wouldn't. This would put the skadi closer to midgame. Otherwise skadi is much closer to late. You can get a manta instead of SnY too, but image hero with a damage modifier will give away your position. With just lothar and SnY, you can do a lot of damage to the other team, with skadi, you're already pretty unstoppable in most situations.

This leaves the last 2 items up for grab depending on the game. Now, BkB would be a good situational item especially against BM. But again, I don't really find it necessary as you can deal with casters with your silence and if they turn on BM, just ignore them. In most cases, tanks turn on BM, you just wack their supports. Or if the melee with BM is going after you, you hit once with the 60% slow and run away with or without lothar. They can't touch you. Play hit and run. You can also consider getting that satanic now if you really have to tank. Satanic at this point stacks with the skadi. Or ... get a guinsoo, lol they won't see it coming.

I recommend 1 IAS and 1 damage item for the last 2 items. You probably guessed it by now, it is the same items I recommend for another frost range DPS, the Wyvern - butterfly and abyssal. Now butterfly goes without question b/c you need the agility gain and the IAS, hence why it is better in this case than cuirass. But some would ask why abyssal instead of crit? Crit will give you really high damage especially with your damage aura and ult. It might be necessary in some cases if you are going against huge LCs or even Specs. But again, in most cases I find it unnecessary. Your hero already has high IAS, high DPS, and the abyssal gives you another 100 damage. 10% chance of bash in my opinion is better than having crit. It allows you to stop TPs and when it comes to melees, if you get that 1 stun in there, you pretty much can finish them even if they are tanks. Of course, the abyssal is also castable should that melee get too close to you.


Summary:
I think the changes to Drow were good. Now she requires some skills to play, hit and run and keeping your enemies at 400 distance away. However wrong item choices and not knowing the basics of this hero still makes a Drow feed early and ineffective late. Item choices must supplement weakness or increase their efficiency. With that, please I do not want to see any more MoM or Helm drows out there. :P

The strategy of this hero is hit and run during chases and flanking during team fights. If you're taking out INT support, don't silence right away if you can access their reflex speed. I find that for some weak INT, I can take them out before they even realize I was hitting them, especially when they're preoccupied with supporting. Take one out quickly and then silence the 2nd support for the kill. With melee heroes, you want to lothar up to them at 400 range and push back. I notice many Drows themselves move too close to melee, almost next to them and the push back doesn't push them far enough out of the 400 range.

Item Recommendations: STR Tread/BoT, Lothar, SnY, Skadi, Butterfly, Abyssal
Skills: Frost, Silence, Aura, Aura, Aura, Ult, Aura, Silence, Silence, Silence, Frost, Frost etc...

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:45 pm

nitromon wrote:I have NEVER seen anyone get the right core item for Drow. That item is SKADI.

giphy.gif
giphy.gif (705 Bytes) Viewed 2986 times

"I get skadi on every hero even when common sense dictates I shouldn't and everyone that doesn't is WRONG!"

On other news, I have NEVER seen anyone get the right core item for sa. That item is LOTHAR!

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby xSAINTx1 » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:28 pm

LOL. Next you're gonna recommend skadi on antimage since he has mana problems and low hp early on (skadi does not work with mana break in this patch). Or Oracle lothar. Where is ShoC where we need him for his famous qop build? 4 perseverance for bf, linked, old bloodstone and refresher, and blink dagger for omega lolz

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby WhatANoob » Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:38 pm

Frankly I think any range hero with attack modifier such as frost arrow or flame arrow should not get another orb.

proceeds to recommend an orb on drow

jesus dude, cant tell if ur a really dedicated troll or actually really dumb.
skill build is all wrong too.

frost arrow costs 12 mana how are you running out of mana if you have regen from aquilla

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Sylvanas » Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:44 pm

WhatANoob wrote:frost arrow costs 12 mana how are you running out of mana if you have regen from aquilla

Gonna have to quote the caps lock Leoric guide on this.
BUT I’M TOO NOOB TO ACTIVATE/DEACTIVATE IT
WHAT THE FUCK, YOU HAVE ONE ACTIVE SKILL YOU DUMB SHIT.

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Merex » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:19 pm

While everyone is quick to call out the "skadi", I do see your point behind it. Being someone who's played trax myself quite a bit, she can either be very powerful in the beginning or very weak. I'd say she is in the same boat as sniper, which is => if you're vs a bara/sa pretty much anything to make a squishy dps's life harder, well.. it's going to be harder. Can sentry/link to no end and you still wouldn't be 100% safe.

I've actually done something once or twice now with trax where I'll go Deso (inb4 omg what a nub trax! getting orb!) as part of my build. Wouldn't be first nor second item as I too always like to start off with loth and transition into sny (unless doing well > then i usually just push buriza). But, with deso you can actually output a lot more damage because the autocast frost arrow will override any orbs when used - So you can essentially -armor a target then proceed to frost them until dead/otherwise. It's a good combo imo but it wouldn't be something to go every game. Just a fun experiment I've tried.

I've gotta say though I've personally never really found skadi to be a practical item for drow. Not going to jump on the hate bandwagon, just haven't tried it myself. If mana really is a big issue for me in said game, I'd find euls to be more up my alley. It's good for surviving due to cyclone, provides the mana regen necessary and also a good boost of MS for mobility. Combo'ing this with sny/loth would definitely keep you in that fast-paced shadow assassin type mode. But, usually I just stick to offensive items.

Nevertheless, this is still a nice guide. Keep them coming! They're a nice read. I also would like to see less lifesteal drows. :D
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nitromon (Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:01 am)
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Astros » Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:26 pm

Merex wrote:While everyone is quick to call out the "skadi", I do see your point behind it. Being someone who's played trax myself quite a bit, she can either be very powerful in the beginning or very weak. I'd say she is in the same boat as sniper, which is => if you're vs a bara/sa pretty much anything to make a squishy dps's life harder, well.. it's going to be harder. Can sentry/link to no end and you still wouldn't be 100% safe.

I've actually done something once or twice now with trax where I'll go Deso (inb4 omg what a nub trax! getting orb!) as part of my build. Wouldn't be first nor second item as I too always like to start off with loth and transition into sny (unless doing well > then i usually just push buriza). But, with deso you can actually output a lot more damage because the autocast frost arrow will override any orbs when used - So you can essentially -armor a target then proceed to frost them until dead/otherwise. It's a good combo imo but it wouldn't be something to go every game. Just a fun experiment I've tried.

I've gotta say though I've personally never really found skadi to be a practical item for drow. Not going to jump on the hate bandwagon, just haven't tried it myself. If mana really is a big issue for me in said game, I'd find euls to be more up my alley. It's good for surviving due to cyclone, provides the mana regen necessary and also a good boost of MS for mobility. Combo'ing this with sny/loth would definitely keep you in that fast-paced shadow assassin type mode. But, usually I just stick to offensive items.

Nevertheless, this is still a nice guide. Keep them coming! They're a nice read. I also would like to see less lifesteal drows. :D


While I wouldn't build Skadi on Drow in most situations, it's a viable item because it allows you to have lifesteal + slow. Drow will always deal heavy damage so skadi makes drow a bit tankier while also having the ability to chase opponents/recover hp during a fight. Cold Arrows with lifesteal would offset one another alone.
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby bigbattle » Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:00 pm

The thing about builds.... They also depend heavily on play styles. Some people may rush mom + blink on someone like drow or sniper, but this would not work for me. You should always experiment to see what works for you.

My starting items are wraith band, phase, HOD, basi ring, SY. I like the MS and dmg you get from phase, and basi gives good enough mana regen.

Afterwards, I rosh, I think she can technically solo rosh with yasha and alpha wolf. Then and get butterfly and satanic, whichever I think I need more, I get first, but typically butterfly. She really needs satanic earlier than sniper I think. This is because her damage is so high that as soon as someone activates BM, she's done for. In general for most heroes, I'd go for satanic before BKB, especially if it's just for BM. It as shorter CD and doesn't loose effectiveness after each use. If I find that I do need BKB, I'd prefer to get it later when it's essential to have a longer avatar anyway. But again, this is situational, but most of the time it works for me.

Final items: BOT, satanic, butterfly, mkb, sy. Game typically over by now, but last item is situational, bkb/buriza or whatever else you feel you need. I almost never get lothars on any hero, just not my play style.

My skill build is pretty much the same as the OP. Except I wait to see what happens at the rune, before I skill. If there is no action, I get aura first and use the damage to out-last hit and deny in lane.
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nitromon (Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:02 am)

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Sat Feb 16, 2019 11:54 pm

Sylvanas wrote:On other news, I have NEVER seen anyone get the right core item for sa. That item is LOTHAR!


Hey, I gave a pretty good argument defending my point. Can you at least show the courtesy of providing why skadi isn't a core item for drow?

Are you saying drow doesn't need hp, mana, IAS, stats?


WhatANoob wrote:frost arrow costs 12 mana how are you running out of mana if you have regen from aquilla


Have you actually tried it? I run out of mana even WITH skadi. Unless you're making frequent trips back to the fountain. Like I've already indicated, at level 15, you only have approx less than 500 mana.


Merex wrote:If mana really is a big issue for me in said game, I'd find euls to be more up my alley. It's good for surviving due to cyclone, provides the mana regen necessary and also a good boost of MS for mobility.


Thanks! That's what I want to hear, if people have other ways of improving something I said which they disagree, offer a counter point. 1/2 of these guys are just emotionally triggered, they haven't come up with anything why skadi is wrong.

But remember what I said earlier when you asked me about bottle. There is an element of preference and style. Since Drow is actually not a hero I actually play anymore, I don't have as many different styles I would write about as in comparison to Spectre. But I would imagine, going blink or forcestaff would be quite interesting for Drow as well. The guide here is a very "straightforward" fundamental build for its main DPS role.


Astros wrote:While I wouldn't build Skadi on Drow in most situations, it's a viable item because it allows you to have lifesteal + slow. Drow will always deal heavy damage so skadi makes drow a bit tankier while also having the ability to chase opponents/recover hp during a fight. Cold Arrows with lifesteal would offset one another alone.


Thank you! That's what I'm talking about. Drow's obvious weakness from start is lack of hp and mana. Seems skadi is the obvious choice. It sucks that we don't get the skadi frost, but it comes with virtually everything she needs.


bigbattle wrote:The thing about builds.... They also depend heavily on play styles. Some people may rush mom + blink on someone like drow or sniper, but this would not work for me. You should always experiment to see what works for you.


Yes there definitely a lot of room for style and though I've never actually seen a blink Drow, but I have seen a pro blink and forcestaff WR. I would imagine the concept may work for the Drow as well. But such playing style is much harder and more "above" the average ENT players I would imagine. I wrote this guide as a straightforward standard DPS build b/c I've seen too many Drows running around for the first 15 minutes with just boots and helm. :lol:

The skadi is a very well rounded item for most heroes, but in this case it supplements so many things she needs.

-----

Summary from comments:
In the guide, I actually listed Satanic as a possible last 5th or 6th item. I think Drow has the advantage vs virtually any of the range heroes b/c of her natural agility gain and the aura. That +80 agility ult is massive for agil heroes - giving DPS, IAS, armor!! I'm speaking from her DPS roles of picking off heroes. I don't see her as a "sustaining" fight hero, though with the agil giving armor and enough bulk, she can.

The thing about satanic is that it requires 2 things to be effective - IAS and damage. She already has damage, but remember she loses that 80 agil when facing a melee hero. But say any sustained fight especially in 1v1, skadi reduces IAS of the enemy, it is such a key counter, why I do actually get skadi for most DPS heroes melee or range. That IAS reduction reduces an enemy PA's chance of crit, void/slar's chance of bash, because it makes them attack slower while increasing your IAS with the stats.

But one thing that does bother me a lot is that by lategame with Drow and the said items, her IAS is so freaking fast, you actually don't need the frost arrows anymore. The only thing frost arrow gives is a -60% movement and while I don't think skadi's movement reduction is as high, but with fast IAS and the giving frost IAS reduction, it is far superior to the frost arrow itself, which kinda renders the arrows useless. However, can a drow actually skip frost arrow? Well I think you still need it before getting that skadi, which can be the first 20-30 minutes.

I would probably say if the game requires you to have a linken, you might be able to skip the skadi. It doesn't give you as much of an increase in bulk, but it does give you that nice mana/hp reg. Generally, I just think skadi is a good "well rounded" item for Drow's need. To replace it, you would need 2 generally - one for bulk, one for IAS.
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Merex (Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:08 am)

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby NoobAlert » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:32 am

the frost attack is the main draw of Skaddi which is 90% wasted on drow. the stats it gives are only mediocre for the cost (very high cost item, +25 to stats) and hp/mana aren't that high. skaddi gives no attackspeed directly, only 25 through agi which is less than a plain shadow amulet (i.e. very low attackspeed)

i play drow all the time... you realize youre not supposed to go around autoing with frost and spamming other skills right... use your skills intelligently and you should not run oom.

most people get dmg first and then get heart later for hp if they have trouble. you can solve most of drow's hp issues through positioning (not getting hit, standing behind tank)

i hate sange and yasha and even that's so much better than skaddi. not only does the slow/cripple stack with frost arrow, it gives hp, damage, and actual attack and movespeed and is 1.5k cheaper.

p.s. the reason people are just flaming you is because skaddi is such a bad item on drow unless there's a very specific circumstance you need it in. most dota players here are relatively experienced and immediately see it's a terrible choice. most noob are pretty unwilling to talk about item choice and believe they are 100% right no matter what, so its bteter to not waste time on it.. maybe ur different idk.
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nitromon (Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:35 am)

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:48 am

NoobAlert wrote:the frost attack is the main draw of Skaddi which is 90% wasted on drow. the stats it gives are only mediocre for the cost (very high cost item, +25 to stats) and hp/mana aren't that high. skaddi gives no attackspeed directly, only 25 through agi which is less than a plain shadow amulet (i.e. very low attackspeed)

i play drow all the time... you realize youre not supposed to go around autoing with frost and spamming other skills right... use your skills intelligently and you should not run oom.

most people get dmg first and then get heart later for hp if they have trouble. you can solve most of drow's hp issues through positioning (not getting hit, standing behind tank)

i hate sange and yasha and even that's so much better than skaddi. not only does the slow/cripple stack with frost arrow, it gives hp, damage, and actual attack and movespeed and is 1.5k cheaper.


I agree with a lot of your points, it does bother me getting a frost item when she already has frost arrows. However, at 20-30 minutes, I cannot think of a better replacement for skadi as if you get bulk, you sacrifice IAS or if you get IAS, you sacrifice bulk. And either way, you don't get manapool. It is a very standard item to supplement all 3 needs.

And with only 400+ mana for the first 1/2 of the game without manapool or manareg other than RoA, you can sustain 1 team fight maybe, but will be quite OOM by the 2nd fight. Silence and lothar both also uses mana. I guess that's why some recommend euls or linken, and I can see them as a viable replacement, but again skadi supplements all 3 of her weaknesses.

She's definitely a flanking hero, and I agree with the positionings. But one of the things about DOTA which differs greatly from the days I use to play Drow is the balancing. Now there are so many flanking heroes and if an enemy team is paying attention, you find yourself getting charged in teamfights, an AM blinking next to you, or a very annoying dagon spectre hunting you. ;)

But I appreciate all the inputs, this isn't a hero I play anymore so I'm not that up to date other than what I see in the games. Some things I've said might be more theoretical but may not be as practical in the actual gameplay. I would love it if some of you fast players would give this build a try and tell me how it works out. ;)

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:41 am

testing-please wrote:why are you trying to write a guide for it if you dont play it
i mean maybe its a good starting point for someone who played 0 drow ranger games but even the skill build is completely wrong


Hi, first off I want to thank you for writing a very detailed response and contributing to the discussion. I didn't say I've never played Drow. I use to play Drow, it was my main 10-15 yrs ago.

The main reason for this guide that I've mentioned is 2 things:
1) 9/10 Drows do not start properly and run around with boots and helm for 20+ minutes. Even going yasha first after that, with no hp, no mana etc... I pick them off with a dagon spectre. People say dagon spectre only works on noobs, well... :roll: what can I say? I pick off weak agil and int heroes all the time b/c they want to skip fundamental steps in building heroes and go straight for IAS/damage, etc... and run around with a paper heroes for 30 minutes.

2) I don't see many lategame Drows built as efficiently as this hero can. I mean, perhaps it is just me? But I rarely see a Drow carry, maybe 1 out of 10 games. Ironically, I've seen many lategame Snipers dominating.

skills are 1 frost 2 gust 3 precision
4 5 frost
6 ult
max frost
skill gust a precision aura as needed


I actually build that way before too and I cringe at players who level the aura to 4 first. However, the more I think about it, the more I disagree. If Frost Arrow also gives IAS reduction, this might seem better, but it only reduces movement speed so it doesn't seem as worth it compare to the damage aura. Also, frost arrow cost mana and Drow has a real mana problem early. The aura is passive, which is good even if you run out of mana. But what eventually switched me over is that the aura is now reworked to base off your agility, so it actually increases per level and with any agil item you get. Early game, most heroes do not have any movement increase other than boots. A level 1 frost is more than adequate to hunt, especially when you have higher damage to kill them per hit.


amaybe youll survive if you build skaddi but you won't do your job (killing things). ..

with drow and sniper, you must out-maneuver the enemies. bara and storm are obviously nightmares for these heroes, but other globals as well are. vs these you can build more hp-oriented.

vs most teams with low global skills, you need dmg more than anything. you need to kill while your tanks absorb damage.


Yes, you're right about the tanking, but I already explained all this in the guide. No, she's not a tank, which is why helm early and rushing satanic is wrong. Drow's new ult and aura gives her natural high agil and damage. You do not need damage items around midgame. You can kill quite effectively with her natural damage. You need to supplement her weakness else you'll just get picked off by SB, Spectre or even nukers.

You are right about her position as DPS, which I also covered in the guide. However, what looks good on paper may not necessarily be good in actual gameplay. DOTA is quite balanced these days and very likely you will face some sort of flankers and assassin heroes. You can't just "skip" the fundamentals and go straight for lategame items early. Item choices and skill levels need to respond to the stage of the game. You can't skip stages! You're taking an awful gamble and your team is the one paying the price. I absolutely do not recommend that at all.

Many players do this unfortunately, they skip steps! Which is why I am able to get huge dagon Spectre games (viewtopic.php?f=14&t=140040). They end up not being able to farm their late items and I would have a late Spectre with all my core items while they're still struggling to get past mid level.


bfly, daedalus(buriza), lothar/dagger for positioning, s&y for all purpose, heart for lategame hp


Most of your items on here are ones I already recommend. The question is "order" when to get which item. But you're choosing heart over skadi? Heart just gives you bulk, nothing else, while skadi will give you bulk, manapool, IAS, agil to stack your aura and damage, and a frost should you run out of mana. To be honest, a heart makes even less sense than a satanic.


if you want a build that hits hard by 20 min, try the following:
- take solo mid (you can tower at 6 with ult and maybe fb)
- start with courier + wraith band (min 0)
- build wraith into aquilla (min 1-2)
- build 2nd wraith band (min 3-4)
- buy boots and build into either str-treads or phases (min 5-8)

now you have 1k hp, moderate defense, and mana regen to sustain frost arrows (dont autocast them, orb-walk with them). people underestimate the power of early items like wraith band, they are extremely good if they hit early and can give you the edge over a lane.

- build into Yasha (12-15 min)
- build shadow edge(loth) (16-20 min)


With STR tread and RoA, you don't have 1K hp. I tested these stats already and you have only approx 300-400 mana even by level 15 and higher. You rush that yasha and and then a lothar, trust me, I will be eating you all game with my dagon Spectre as I have made a living doing that and I can suspect other heroes such as SB, SA, even BH will do the same. Even heavy nuker INT heroes can destroy you that early.

I'm sorry to say, but your suggestion here is quite typical what I see in the games, which is why I wrote this guide to begin with. You can't skip steps like that. You're gambling your team to carry you solely to your stage. If your early carries fail, you will never reach lategame. Granted yes, as mid-late carry, you do need to rely on your early carries for the first 20 minutes. However, just like support heroes contribute partially late game to their late carries, Drow and other late carries must contribute early to supplement their team. But more so, running around with just a yasha makes you a liability, you're just food for their gank heroes who will feed off you to get big.

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kunkka
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby kunkka » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:53 am

testing-please wrote:you are just theorycrafting not playing the game. while theorycrafting can be fun, there are things that sound good and perform bad, or the other way around.

It is basically what op has been doing with some “experience” gained against teams with 5 noobs.

Also op has a habit of getting lost during typing - for example when he countered your statement about skadi (3rd quote on the post at 8:41pm Feb 16), you argued that skadi is bad because drow can’t kill with it and tanking isn’t her job. Then he wrote a long 3 paragraph post, which seemed to be counter-arguing and was supposed to explain why skadi would allow drow to kill, but no, he basically repeated what you said.

So a lot of times it made me feel like a fool after wasting my time reading the wall of texts, not only because a lot of it is theorycrafting, but also because they are not to the point.
Last edited by kunkka on Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Astros » Sun Feb 17, 2019 4:57 am

Skadi isn't bad on drow. Just not ideal in these type of APEM games. Unfortunately, and experienced/good players will find this true, item choices don't really matter as much if the quality of players are low. It's why players can rush daggers as a first item and still do very well despite it providing zero statistical advantage(s).
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Sylvanas » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:20 am

nitromon wrote:
Sylvanas wrote:On other news, I have NEVER seen anyone get the right core item for sa. That item is LOTHAR!


Hey, I gave a pretty good argument defending my point. Can you at least show the courtesy of providing why skadi isn't a core item for drow?

Are you saying drow doesn't need hp, mana, IAS, stats?

Your argument is the same "pretty good" "argument" everyone gives to justify getting skadi on any hero. Skadi gives hp -> x needs hp because x dies when he/she runs out of hp! skadi gives armor and attack speed -> x can use some armor and attack speed! skadi gives mana -> x can use some mana because if x runs out of mana he/she cannot use the important y skill he/she depends so much on! You could make that claim with any hero, not to mention every single one of those other heroes except viper can also use a slowing attack.

You probably haven't even tried being careful with your mana usage and not getting skadi, because then you wouldn't be able to make your outlandish claim that skadi is actually the core item to drow and EVERYONE ELSE just hasn't realized it yet. You have yet to encounter one person that knows it, CERTAINLY it must mean that EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, this is simply what logic dictates.

If you've gotten lothar and s&y and still think your problem is that you need a large chunk of extra hp, then you're just not playing her right. Oh, did you go 35-0 and carry your team, certainly because you're so great and are the only person who knows drow's core item, and certainly not because the other team was a bunch of retards? Then you didn't need that hp any more than you need the mana, because you clearly didn't spend the game nearly dying. If drow still needs skadi, then just about every other hero needs it more.

Abyssal over buriza is laughable too, but of course I'm not part of the exclusive group of people who know what drow REALLY should get (that's just you), so I wouldn't know. I mean, buriza gets three god damn crits for every bash abyssal gets, but who cares? Somehow you need that bash to interrupt the tp of some poor sob who would have gotten critted THREE times in the same time frame. Wait, why do you need to interrupt a tp if he's been critted 3 times, again? He ded.
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