DOTA Guide - Drow

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby kunkka » Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:31 am

Skadi is a core item on viper, bara, destroyer, kunkka, abba, alch, dragon knight, huskar, balanar, slard, sven, tiny, skeleton king.

What you don’t agree?

Are you saying these heroes don’t need hp, mana, IAS and stats?

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:02 am

Astros wrote:Skadi isn't bad on drow. Just not ideal in these type of APEM games. Unfortunately, and experienced/good players will find this true, item choices don't really matter as much if the quality of players are low. It's why players can rush daggers as a first item and still do very well despite it providing zero statistical advantage(s).


Yeah, that's definitely true. It is often on my mind when writing these guides whether they're necessary considering the general playing pool today where every game there's some 600 elo guy going 0-11. Perhaps everyone is right, dagon spec does only work on noobs. I just wasn't aware of the shift in skill level of the player pool, I've been picking off so many squish heroes for 20 minutes of the game. :|

------------

Sylvanas wrote:because then you wouldn't be able to make your outlandish claim that skadi is actually the core item to drow and EVERYONE ELSE just hasn't realized it yet. You have yet to encounter one person that knows it, CERTAINLY it must mean that EVERYONE ELSE is wrong, this is simply what logic dictates.


You know, you're a cool player in the games, but you're pretty toxic in the forums as well. You continue this kind of attitude, I'll just block you too. You "assume" and insinuate the worse in people instead of giving people the benefit of the doubt. When we "read" other people's writing, we generally read it in our own voice. So perhaps you want to check what kind of voice coming out of yourself.

Perhaps when you "word" the phrases I did, you have such a toxic motive, but I do not. I write these guides with a mild humorous happy attitude. You "read what you want" and you make enemies of people by building case against them base on biased choices of what you want to read. You conveniently "skip" over things you don't want to read and you manipulate other people's words. Why don't you just join Saint in the toxic garbage dump.

- Never said getting skadi is about frost, even specifically said "despite" the frost. but you choose to ignore it and make it a "sa getting lothar" comment

- Never said this is just an "item for all hero" item as I've specifically pointed out the 2 major weaknesses in the Drow which can be resolved by this 1 single item. This is what makes it a "core" and as I've said on many occasions, especially in the DOTA fundamental guide, a "core" item is debateable and depending on players. So you have to inject your own prideful arrogant "everyone is against everyone" attitude into my words.

- You just assumed I didn't try this, it is all theoretical, which it is not.


certainly not because the other team was a bunch of retards?


No actually, I went 6-3 in one game and 0-5 in the other, lost both games. What did you honestly expect from a 23 APM player and had not touched this hero in over a decade? But you naturally assume I went 30-0 against noobs and now am boasting about it? Because you're use to that kind of environment and type of egomaniac toxic players. Perhaps you yourself is one. This is what they call "projection" b/c that is how you feel about other players and how "you read my writings."

No, how I performed with this build is irrelevant to its fundamentals. I've said it on countless occasions, I would love to see a faster younger player try these things. They would do amazing things with them b/c they still can. I tested the heroes just to get a feel and to update my understanding of their style, abilities, and most importantly, potentials.

I feel sorry for you if you live like this in real life. Everyone is an enemy. Everything is a fight. :roll: I know your kind all too well. Always an enemy at work, an enemy in the family, and an enemy among your neighbors. Am I correct?

Actually I'm not even going to give you another chance. You can marinate among your own kinds.

*blocked*

-------

testing-please wrote:if you look at frost, level 1 is 16% and each level adds +16% slow. 16% slow isn't much, but at level 4 it's 64% slow which is absolutely debilitating. not only does this allow orbwalk and chasing, but it allows kiting. now look at precision aura. precision aura in dota 1 may grant you ~3-4 damage at level 1. at level 4 it may grant you 10-12 or so, assuming consistent agility. you can get that much damage by buying 1 wraith band.


Actually the slow is 15% first and max at 60%, but I think you have a valid point here. I haven't done the actual calculation for the damage gain. I just didn't think it was necessary to have level 4 frost by level 7 considering the trade off. There's also the team gain from the aura as well. It's ok for people to disagree, some things are a matter of preference.

If you can get away with 20-30 minute of the game with just yasha and lothar, hey the more power to you. But I'm only speaking from games I've seen and mostly Drows I've seen were never a threat in the games to me or other players. Rarely have I seen a Drow that concerns me. Most time they just get picked off by assassin. So if I am to play the Drow, I would prefer a little more bulk to survive. That's all I'm saying.

if you havent played drow in 10 years you cant make such a guide for it, you dont understand the hero.


I may not have played Drow in a while, but I have played with Drow allies and against Drows many times. I've seen pro Drows, but rarely. That's why writing this guide after I have tried the hero again myself. Nothing to boast about I did poorly, but I recognize the weaknesses and what changes were made to the hero. The guide is fundamental guide, hence why I say rushing a damage item you are gambling your team. Drow is already heavy with damage from natural abilities. Of course if the game tips in your favor early, you can rush it. This goes for any heroes. For example, for the Phoenix, I recommend a VG as core to survive. Of course if the game goes well, and some games I've played did, I rush the radiance right away.

But "fundamentally" speaking. If you are playing against decent players who are not easily flanked, who has Spectre, SB, etc... you should really try to cover up Drow's weakness before going after lategame core items. Though I didn't mention it earlier, but b/c it is a fundamental guide, I NEVER write it for a "solo" player. Why? Because you may not always get solo lane. And if you require solo to be effective, then you have to question your own skill level, right? People fight over solo lanes all the time, I never solo. Ever.


you say you can't rely on allies to carry you through midgame. again maybe this is just an ENT thing... but that is literally THE ENTIRE PURPOSE of having supports.


Maybe I didn't word it correctly or it is being misunderstood. As I've said in this thread and also in the basic DOTA fundamental guide, every hero has a different carry stage. So yes, you are absolutely correct "early carries" do their job first 15-20 minutes and even into midgame 30-40 minutes. However, what I said is, EVEN so, you still need to contribute. This is a 5v5 game and the team that works well together wins the game.

By lategame, when your late heroes are carrying hard, it doesn't mean your INT heroes and support heroes can just sit there and watch or disappear into the jungles. They still need to contribute. For this reason I absolutely hate and have no respect for players that picks a late carry and "disappears" for 30-40 minutes farming, refusing to join team fights with excuses, "I'm a late carry I need to farm" etc... We've all seen it. A Naix, LC, SK, etc... disappears for 30+ minutes farming neutrals while team suffers an imbalance match up.

This is the VERY reason I stopped playing late carries actually. I can remember the specific game that pissed me off, it was way back in Dotacash. I was Clinkz, going on 10-20 kills in the first 20-25 minutes. Then the enemy team decided to hold hands while my team watched me play, never helped, and jungled. I remember thinking to myself, what the hell am I doing? Earning ELO for players who don't deserve it? I will always remember that game, it fundamentally changed me. Since then, I stopped playing Void, Clinkz, PL, etc... and started playing support and it evolved into my style today where I play mostly global or lane controllers. I am willing to help my team win, but I will not win for them alone. (Well, today it is not really a choice anymore as I no longer have the reaction speed to carry anyways :lol:)

But you get my point? Early game your INT and supports carry, you support by providing the DPS and whatever else you can. The role switches late game as you carry and they support. As such, you still need to participate. You can't just "rely" on them and disappear or not engaging in team fights.


you are just theorycrafting not playing the game.


It's not theorcrafting b/c you assume I never played Drow, or have never played "with" Drow allies or against Drows. But like I've said, if you can get away with this build, more power to you. Just "in my experience" I have taken care of Drows with this kind of builds for years. Whenever an enemy picks Drow, it is never threat to me, as I've said 1 out 10 maybe a pro. Perhaps you are that pro, but many other Drows are not, hence why they need to supplement Drow's weakness.

That link I send you with the dagon Spectre? That's just a "handful" of games. I've cleaned up Drows with your build for years. With 1000 HP, the dagon + dagger alone cuts you down to less than 400 at 12 minutes mark. If you get nuked by another support or simply damaged in a fight, it is clean up on aisle 2 for me. Heck with 1000 hp, I'll just get techies + medal + blink and blow up the Drow for the first 30 minutes without considering mines. These tactics slows your progression, your farm, and strengthens my team.

you need knowledge + skill + proper builds + proper hero choice and things like that. if you do ok with retarded builds, you'd do so much better with real ones


But that's a 2 way mirror. You said that if dagon spec works on ENT, it shows the level of ENT players. Perhaps you are correct, in fact more and more I'm beginning to think that. However, in reverse, I can also say if you can survive on 1000 hp for 30 minutes as a Drow, it shows the level of players you've been playing against too. Right?

There are also dynamic difference between DOTA 1 and 2 not necessarily due to only skill differences of the players. Perhaps you are correct, this would never work in DOTA 2. But we are playing DOTA 1 here on Ent.

Again, appreciate your input, I really do. Don't get me wrong. We may agree on some points and disagree on others. But generally, I'm simply writing a guide based on what I've seen on Drows here and the builds they've used. And your build is a typical build I've seen on Drows which I found ineffective and have cleaned up many times with real retarded builds like dagon spec and blink techies. :lol:
Last edited by nitromon on Sun Feb 17, 2019 8:44 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby xSAINTx1 » Sun Feb 17, 2019 7:59 am

I'm reformed. No longer toxic. Stay positive @nitromon . You wont hear anymore insults from me :)
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Astros » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:07 am

Props to nitromon for writing these. Probably takes some decent amount of time. You should do one for Tiny since there is some tension going on with how he should be played these days :D
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:18 am

Astros wrote:Props to nitromon for writing these. Probably takes some decent amount of time. You should do one for Tiny since there is some tension going on with how he should be played these days :D


Thanks man, but I don't typically play him and I've seen quite a few really pro ones out there that can write the guide. ;)

When I do go Tiny, I build him as straight up tank.

(I should say that I do have a "fun" build with Tiny with basher and IAS, with craggy it gives him 50% bash, but it is not really fundamental or effective in a real game, and more of a just fun build :lol: I have actually consider playing more Tiny b/c he has so many different abilities to build upon. The craggy and his ult can make him effective tank and/or DPS, with possibilities of even 2000+ damage crit.)

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Sylvanas » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:20 am

Someone should call a detective because at least one reply has mysteriously vanished from this thread. Or is the mod team really acting that defensive about the forum clown and his skadi drow?

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby xSAINTx1 » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:08 am

Very rude sir. Try to be positive. We can't all be pro arem players. ;P

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Sylvanas » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:17 am

nitromon wrote:- Never said getting skadi is about frost, even specifically said "despite" the frost. but you choose to ignore it and make it a "sa getting lothar" comment

There's just a problem, you can't do that. If you're getting skadi and not using its main/distinguishing feature, then it's automatically not worth getting. You're like that guy I played with long ago. I randomed visage, and being part of the 99% of people who want nothing to do with randoming visage, I asked if someone wanted to swap me. This guy did; he was a good visage, he said. Later, I realize he never got his ult and when asked about it, he explained he didn't intend to, that he played visage without the familiars. You can't play visage properly if you can't/won't use his familiars, just like you can't use skadi if you can't/won't use the orb.

nitromon wrote:- Never said this is just an "item for all hero" item as I've specifically pointed out the 2 major weaknesses in the Drow which can be resolved by this 1 single item. This is what makes it a "core" and as I've said on many occasions, especially in the DOTA fundamental guide, a "core" item is debateable and depending on players. So you have to inject your own prideful arrogant "everyone is against everyone" attitude into my words.

Your 2 "major weaknesses" were running out of hp and running out of mana. That's funny, I know a few heroes that also have these weaknesses. One thing leading to another, if this is all it takes to justify skadi on a hero, then it should be gotten on any and all of them.

nitromon wrote:No actually, I went 6-3 in one game and 0-5 in the other, lost both games. What did you honestly expect from a 23 APM player and had not touched this hero in over a decade? But you naturally assume I went 30-0 against noobs and now am boasting about it? Because you're use to that kind of environment and type of egomaniac toxic players. Perhaps you yourself is one. This is what they call "projection" b/c that is how you feel about other players and how "you read my writings."

I was expecting the famed "I did great with this build so it's the right build" argument. Also, your usage of quotes is confusing the hell out of me and I'm not sure how to interpret it.

nitromon wrote:I feel sorry for you if you live like this in real life. Everyone is an enemy. Everything is a fight. :roll: I know your kind all too well. Always an enemy at work, an enemy in the family, and an enemy among your neighbors. Am I correct?

Who's my enemy here? You? Since when? I'm just witnessing batshit lunacy and pointing at it.

nitromon wrote:Actually I'm not even going to give you another chance. You can marinate among your own kinds.

*blocked*

Oh, so now I'm asking for chances not to be blocked by you, the discoverer of drow's core item skadi, circa 2019. I expected no less from you.

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby kunkka » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:00 pm

Sylvanas wrote:
nitromon wrote:Actually I'm not even going to give you another chance. You can marinate among your own kinds.

*blocked*

Oh, so now I'm asking for chances not to be blocked by you, the discoverer of drow's core item skadi, circa 2019. I expected no less from you.

I feel honored to be one of the first that got *blocked* by op. Then whoever disagrees with him.

I guess now he can hear only those that he wants to hear and “marinate among his own kinds”. :lol: oh shit it’s gonna be a 2-man forum then

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Merex » Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:27 pm

kunkka wrote:
Sylvanas wrote:
nitromon wrote:Actually I'm not even going to give you another chance. You can marinate among your own kinds.

*blocked*

Oh, so now I'm asking for chances not to be blocked by you, the discoverer of drow's core item skadi, circa 2019. I expected no less from you.

I feel honored to be one of the first that got *blocked* by op. Then whoever disagrees with him.

I guess now he can hear only those that he wants to hear and “marinate among his own kinds”. :lol: oh shit it’s gonna be a 2-man forum then
'
Pretty sure he blocks you 2 because you are both uncivil and can't have a decent opposing argument to save your life.

Specifically you, kunkka, what was your contribution to this post? "Oh he gets his lost in his words he makes me feel stupid for reading his overly long repetitive paragraphs all he does is play against 5 noobs" then your next post just a meme that skadi is a core on every hero. Tell me, why should he bother responding to you at all if you're just going to be rude and belittle his words?
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby kunkka » Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:10 pm

Don’t respond then. Maybe go delete the post?

You realize he made this “guide” when he goes 0-5 with the build right? He didn’t play for 15 years and he wrote the guide after “observing others playing it”. Tell me why I should “contribute” to the post after testing-please, sylvanas and saint have said everything needed for op to underatand the hero, but then what happened? *blocked*?
Last edited by Merex on Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: merged. (no double post needed)

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby Astros » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:38 pm

The point here is that you can have constructive criticism without having a demeaning tone. We can all learn a few things here with these discussions so let's try to keep them civil. You don't have to agree with his guide but at least he is trying to offer discussions here.
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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:30 am

xSAINTx1 wrote:I'm reformed. No longer toxic. Stay positive @nitromon . You wont hear anymore insults from me :)


Hey man, I didn't read this earlier b/c I had you blocked. But I'm glad to see you feeling better and I have unblocked you. I don't hold grudges and I do understand why you were so angry. There were people trolling and harassing you with smurf accounts, so you probably have a negative view on anonymous players like me. But truth is, I have always enjoyed playing with you, even though you didn't know it was me. I tell you the truth, I much prefer to play with your Geo than other Geos out there. One thing I notice about your playing which differs greatly from other Geos is you are very team oriented. Almost right from the start you communicate with your team and you work with them. You let us know when you are ready for ganks so we can help and you also respond when your teammates needed help even early in the game when you only have 2 or 3 Geos with limited items. That's why I've always admired your playing style, team players are the best players.

Don't let other players get to you. You know you're a great player, you don't need me or anyone to tell you that. And you don't need to listen to toxic players trying to get you down.

Cheers mate!


----------

@testing-please

Hey, I got your PM, but I really have no idea about anything you were mentioning concerning your accounts, etc... it also wouldn't let me reply, so I hope if you're still reading this thread. I want to thank you for the discussion. I hope I wasn't too blunt in some parts and I hope we didn't have a miscommunication. One thing I realized is that this Drow guide is really straight-forward and you were correct, I wrote it so even beginners can play it well. That doesn't necessarily mean this is a "beginner's guide" as I still believe the item choices suggested is a much better fundamentally lategame "well rounded" build. This is the same concept for my Ember build, a more well-rounded build than straight up 5 damage items. But of course, a player with more familiarity with the hero may not need to be this bulky and may want more riskier items.

Anyways, thanks for your input, I did read it thoroughly and you made a lot of great points. I also realize perhaps I should be a little more careful in writing them, some people mistaken my "excited overzeal" with arrogance and pompousness. However, my attitude in writing these guides seriously is just a very happy go lucky kinda attitude. :D
Last edited by nitromon on Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: DOTA Guide - Drow

Postby nitromon » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:49 am

cjgjmas wrote:you're recommending as "fundamentals" the items you should get only if you're being ganked constantly by bara and globals. that isn't fundamentals, that won't be most games


Actually, welcome to ENT Dota. :lol:

Where there's a SB, LC, Slark, Spec, Tech in almost every game. ;)

---

Anyways, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I think either games in DOTA 2 are vastly different or what you are describing is too ideal. The 2 Drow games I tested this, the very first one had a SB that wrecked havoc. I was lucky to get out of that one with 6-3. The 2nd game was even worse, they had Rhasta/WD/silencer.

Yes, I do know how to play range, I played Sniper as main even longer and more recent than Drow. But the games don't always line up so perfectly ideal. I mean, yeah, if tanks do their jobs, if everyone is lined up like a football match, but it isn't. I lothar flank the enemy. Their rhasta linked our tank, I silence and attack, but ... didn't see the WD waiting in the fog and bam, wacked me out. Next fight I was more careful, waited until I see them both, and bam Silencer hiding in the fog and took me out. Ended up 0-5 in that game.

It is ideal to say, tanks in front, range in back or range in flank. But most team fights are messy with heroes all over the place here and there. Or we expect everyone on the team to do their jobs, often or not 1 or 2 will not. Of course in certain games, it really doesn't matter how well you play or what items you get, if your team is just feeders and trolls, it is unwinnable. But typically I think when considering a build or what is "fundamental" is with consideration of worst case scenarios matchups. In all my guides, I always assume 10 players of equal skill, so player factor is eliminated, and we only talk about heroes. But to be fundamental, you have to take in account of your "counters" and the 3 different stages of the game.

Ember Spirit would again, be a great example. I think it is ideal to say, get 2 fury, 1 crit, and 2 divine and just own your opponents. However, in a real game, that will almost never work b/c Ember has a lot of weaknesses too that needs to be supplemented. In all likelyhood, going straight up damage build leaves a vulnerability on your team which the other team will take advantage off and most likely the Ember will never be able to farm all those items before the game is over. What makes his guide fundamental is that it addresses all 3 stages of the game, items that match his skill abilities, and allows him to contribute from beginning to end.

When it comes to Drow, I assume every game there will be at least 1-3 disablers as well as flankers and assassins, etc...


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