The BIGGEST reason I dislike LegionTD (and how to fix it)

[yongsan]

If I may, I will share my thoughts regarding this matter.

tl;dr: The biggest problem in this community is judgment by ELO. W/L or ELO not being publicly viewable in-game should fix most of the problems raised by TC without needing an auto-balancing mechanism that would not allow friends to play together

My experience and observation is basically the same as the topic creator, robizeratul

I started out just wanting to play. I didn't know that W/L was tracked, and I didn't know what ELO was. I didn't care which team I ended up on, I just wanted to get in the game and play. This resulted in me always being on the weaker team and by the time I figured out what was going on, I had a badly losing record. I was in the same boat - around 1:2 win/loss ratio, around 20/40 W/L. I don't think I was that bad of a player even then; I knew basic builds, always played with team. I personally didn't really care that much if I lost or won as long as coordination was good.

By the time I realized people just type !lms or !scores and go to the other team/leave because they just assume I suck, I had a hard time getting wins. I didn't make a new account to start from scratch. From this point, I instead started being selective about the games I played. I left lobbies where I felt we were severely disadvantaged, or joined the side that had the most experienced players. My skill level didn't change much (of course as I gain more games played I become marginally better with builds, but you know what I mean), but my record completely changed.
I think in the span of 4-5 weeks, I was at 1500+. Getting from 800 ish to 1000 was hard (I had to find experienced/high ELO players willing to accept having me on the team), but afterwards, it was easy to just stack up my ELO.

By the time I was 1300+, a new problem started: now people assume I'm this awesome player, and follow me around in lobbies. The new problem was, now people assume I'm really good, meaning they would get mad at me if my build wasn't perfect or if I took king and I wasn't good at it. I heard many times something along the lines of:

'wtf, why did you push/build that? !lms - how are you 1500 elo?'

So I decided I needed to make a new account so that I would again be allowed to make mistakes. I figured I would play the 1500 account again when I was sufficiently skilled enough to fulfill the ridiculous expectations in Legion TD Mega people would just have about me.

Guess what - being 0/0 1000 ELO, nobody wants to play with you. I think I went 2/5 in my first 7 games. I'm still the same guy with a 1500 ELO account that basically would win 80+% of games I played in, but all of a sudden I can't seem to replicate the same results. As I write this post, I became a bit more selective with my games again and now I've reached 1200 on this account as well.

My point is this:
All the problems people raise are based on players building up prior expectations about a player based on their ELO. Most players just join a lobby, type '!scores, !lms' and just go to the higher ELO team or leave if the better team has no spots, leading to the unbalanced games.
As demonstrated by me making a new account, despite being a 1500+ player in Mega, as soon as I made a new account I struggled to win games. This is not because of my skill level, but because of the community's treatment of players based on their ELO.

I believe the fix that doesn't involve auto-balancing would be to limit the information-gathering process in the lobby. If the issue is, 'we want to avoid people who tk,' then there is the report/ban route for game ruiners, and you will remember their account in the future and know to avoid. When ELO is no longer used to judge players, I believe the games would naturally be more balanced than they currently are, without judgment in-game (!lms, no wonder you suck/how are you this ELO? you're terrible). You would still be allowed to play with your friends

As constructed, the current system leads to tons of people just leaving when countdown starts to try and increase their chances of winning/stack in the next game. This is a game; people should just be playing instead of wasting time waiting for the next game and trying to get on the best possible team since your track record basically determines your future game records.

[azmoso]

My sentiments also as a new player. Accidentally posted in wrong topic. But yeah, I think a good solution would be just to have a hosted game that is all random mode eg. [ENT] Legion TD Mega autobalance , so there's still the other game modes available for people who want to stack teams *cough* play with friends.

viewtopic.php?f=249&t=129512

[Augustinus]

I have a suggestion for the "play with friends" issue, which seems to be the major counter point to a fairer matchmaking system:

• All LTD Mega games are preset to autobalancing
• For the case that people want to join with friends, there will be a bot command implemented !teamup <player>
• All players that want to play together must use the teamup for each player they want to have in their team mutually. Otherwise the teamup will be invalid.

I don't think it should be too difficult to integrate set teams in the autobalancing algorithm. I might even be able to help out with implementing it if the community likes the idea.

[Stiff_Maistar]

Doesnt seem like Autobalance will happen, you can search in the archive here where it have gotten denied several times. Also, there seem to have been an autobalance bot before on ent but it didnt work out.

Here are a couple links from the archive as an example:
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=76636
viewtopic.php?f=43&t=123486 (most recent one)

Also:
The !teamup command wouldnt really work, two or more random players with high elo could use the command to avoid playing with low elo players.

There is a !votebalance command, so if its not used it reflects the opinion of the community - that the majority of players dont want balanced games.

[Augustinus]

...

Also:
The !teamup command wouldnt really work, two or more random players with high elo could use the command to avoid playing with low elo players.

There is a !votebalance command, so if its not used it reflects the opinion of the community - that the majority of players dont want balanced games.

The matchmaking behaviour of players does not express their wish for stacked games. I am quite positive that the majority of players does this to avoid the downsides of the current non existent matchmaking system. A fairer matchmaking system would produce a different behaviour which has to be evaluated.

Also my intention is not to block out high Elo players or smurfs who want to play together. There can always be tryhards who will attempt even to avoid a balancing system, but I don't think the majority of players is that keen on stacked games.

Also consider that it is a lot fairer if you "gamble" who has to take the 0/3 60% stayrate player instead of stacking up and leaving one innocent dude with 2 more tk bombs in team west.

One last thought: Even if a lot of players enjoy getting an advantage in ranked games by abusing the matchmaking options in the lobby - it does not necessarily mean that they should be able to do so. So much for the communitywish for unbalanced games.

[xiiliea]

With the current public ELO, I stack not mainly because I want to win, but mainly because I don't want to lose ELO/win rate and become an unwanted pariah. I like challenging games from time to time, but I'm not risking my win rate for that. Just sharing my thoughts.

[ZinGir]

High elo players avoid 999 or less elo players cause 99% of them are a troll, or just not willing to learn. the 1% what you make part of will often taken in anyway cause you play and act normal and ask stuff when you dont know it.

If anything game throwing like that should be punished harder. the 12 hours the mods currently give them (when i report em) aint cutting it. should be upped to 5>10 days. multi offenders should get a stacking effect.
That way i dont have to take justice in my own hands.

[Stiff_Maistar]

@Zingir There have always been a stacking effect on bans. A simple ban that gives two-three days can after a while give 2 months.
And how is it you take justice in your own hands? Trolling in their games, kick them from the game, hack their computer...?

[Augustinus]

I would like to throw in here, that most new players don't know the !votebalance command. So the people who would need it most will hardly initiate it or even contribute to the autobalance voting. And it is only human that the stacked players are less inclined to give up their advantage for a fair game only in exchange. I generally think that balancing decisions should not be made by the community, but by people who have statistics and an objective view on the game.

[ZinGir]

Get better at the game then, play with bots. dont force the better players to quit playing cause the ones who refuse to learn or cant learn want it to be balanced.

[Augustinus]

Get better at the game then, play with bots. dont force the better players to quit playing cause the ones who refuse to learn or cant learn want it to be balanced.

Just read the posts. This is not a discussion led by new players.

[ZinGir]

You complain high elo avoid you cause your elo is bad, try resetting it?

No its led by people whom refuse to learn or even play one single player ltd match just to learn some builds and see what works.
But no its the players who do learn, who do play single player matches to learn builds whom are the bad guys. cause we avoid you.

I decided to be nice for a day, cost me 300 elo. cant help the unwilling.

Saying im 19/39 cause better players refuse to play with me is just silly(i said silly cause i lack the right wording)

Try it with any sport, they tell you to learn the basics first.
All thats being said is, im not good at the game and have no chance to get better. while its actually you staying with the mentallity that you are bad, and probs forgetting you can reset your scores and actually try to get better by just asking for help!!!

If any one of you said "look im not good at this game my scores pretty bad, but maybe one of you better player could help me out that would be great"
I swear 90% of the players that would avoid you will say. "Sure we can help you with that, do you know any builds etc etc"

But no that never happens, or atleast its too rare for me to remember.

@Stiff_Maistar srsly why would i reveal that? Also that would bring a hella lot more unwanted drama.

[Stiff_Maistar]

First of all: Augustin didnt complain that high elo avoided him. He made a suggestion based on general experience he have had and have seen other people have had. For example a player with 5k elo could have the same experience as him, that people with elo around 1k gets avoided by high elo people.

Anyway, Take a look at the archive and you will see why autobalancing wont happen.

[Augustinus]

Ok I give up. I will play like ZinGir in the future and spare me all the hassle with BRQs and explaining builds.

[ZinGir]

You missed the point stiffy he actually tried to get a high elo, and found games where people would accept him cause he talked, once he had a high enough elo he stopped asking those questions and got slammed for that.