Unranked Legion TD Bot

[Augustinus]

You do realise that 1200+ is a different game? I don't get the argument. The mega bot is the core of LTD Mega and you are saying it is lost, go play another game? It was already mentioned here, I don't want to repeat the arguments.

We want to segregate skill lvls to cut the off the hardest "bombs" on the Mega bot. A bad player with 30 games has still a better feeling for the overall gameplay and is more open to strategic hints than someone who hasn't played any games at all and got flamed each time he decided something on their own. A new player in Mega has atm ZERO feedback for his actions as in a good game all his moves are decided by better players and he won't understand the output of these as he is not orchestrating anything. If you have played 30 noob games all with your own responsibility and can watch what happens and how you influence the game you just get to the right mindset to improve your playstyle.

If you start horseback riding you also get an old and patient horse that won't get mad for accidentally moving your legs or shifting position. That much freedom must be there to make first steps.

[Vendeta]

Dude then its your "responsibility" to explain to them why are they building as being told.

And 1200 bot is not a "different game". Its the same game, just a with a players who think a bit more "outside of the box". Mega players are just limited, and they cant and WONT understand when u talk to them about something new, or different, which is in 99% of cases better.

Every older player knows mega is bottom of the scale, that it is for newbies and noobs who cant/wont learn anything new. so they just stay there playing limited, and boring cross games.

[Hakuna]

@Jabba41 @Vendeta @bratmi

I want to apologize. I'm not very good at keeping my cool. I need to get a lot better. Please give me the chance to be a better person.

@Augustinus

I really appreciate your input, I feel it is very well-written and well-thought-out. You put me to shame both with your composure and your intellect. I am in your debt.

U guys are so terroble wrong. U want new bot just for new players so that they can learn options, metas, and tactics? Who will teach them that? U would have a bot with bunch of newbies who doesnt know what they doing at all, with noone to show them anything.

U want more competitive and better games, without newbies, but u want do get that without leaving noob bottom bot? Mega is disagned for that actually, so that new players can learn some basics in this game, and when they get pretty much normal player (1200+ elo) they can go on a bot which is a bit different, but for sure more competitive than mega. So u cant ask to get a new bot for noobs amd newbies, when u already have that and its called Mega.

As for the smurfs, some people go with firends in mega to play for fun with friends, but they dont wamt to ruin their stas on main account, or they just have hogh accounts, amd they dont wamt 5o play for 2 elo, and risking 28. I guess its a waste of time for ent moderators, who already have a lot on their hands, to starts searchijg for smurfs, catching bunch of players, just so u could feel comfortable in yoir mega cross game.

My advoce for u is the same:
Get 1200 elo, get out of mega, play some 1200, get more experience, and fry join LIHL. If u already that competitive. U say that you play mega 4 years now, i can tell u that u have simply wasted a lot of time.

U guys just have to realise, the new bot u are asking for is already there, and its called MEGA.So yes, any time u ask for mods to get u a new bot, because u wamt mega to be mlre competitive, u will ALWAYS get the same answer: u want more competitive games? Go play 1200, or lihl. U dont get better than that.

Let me start by saying that if you wrote with correct grammar and spelling it would make your argument get a lot further with me, because I think you have the capacity for it and you just don't put out the effort. It makes it harder for me to digest what you are saying and take it seriously. Anyway I will do my best to give you that respect as I failed to previously.

Your first point, to summarize, is that noobs can't teach themselves anything in a bot by themselves.

I agree, it wouldn't bring them up to speed with the meta. That you are 100% correct about. However, I still think it offers multitude of benefits.

• They get used to how to build
• They learn how to upgrade lumber and how to send
• They get some general sense of what waves are easy and what are hard
• If smurfs play or people who are experienced but want to play more casual or have an interest in helping noobs, they get exposed to more advanced strategies.

You don't consider smurfs a problem. I think I don't need to reiterate the well-spoken points of Augustinus on this. To summarize what he said, smurfs delegitimize stats, because there is no difference between a smurf and a complete noob by stats alone, but there is a huge difference between them when it comes to their contributions.

Finally, I agree that the current situation puts the MEGA bot as the stomping grounds of noobs, but I am arguing that it should not be this way. Bratmi's suggestion to have a 1200+ bot with cross allowed would satisfy me just fine.

Again I apologize and I hope I can find your good graces.

[Vendeta]

@Hakuna
So first u flame me, now u calling me out cuz i missed couple letters, okay. And in the middle of it, u even apologize. Sounds like a legit mega player. Fyi i was typing on phone, thats why so many mistakes.

Again, realise, cross is for noobs. Is for players who dont know how to play solo lanes. Sharing 12 units into 1 lane, auras, hard t6, that is super noob.

On ENT site, u can read "if u want more competitive games, try our 1200 bot".
What does that mean ? It means MEGA is for noobs, its lowest bot that u could have, there is no lower than that. And it means cross should stay in noob bot, like designed, and if u want to play it, then u also need to deal with newbies, noobs and terrible gameplay.

It looks to me like none of u is ready to learn anything new, u all live "inside the box", u just want to continue crossing and play noob games, but without new guys who would ruin that for you. So either accept it, cuz like jabba said, u wont get what u asking for, and play as it is, or try to move from your "noob" spot and learn something new about this game.

You would be right if Mega was a normal, competitive bot, but it isnt, it is bot for new players to learn basics, and to move on. Not to be stuck there for decades, and then cry all over the forum how its bad.

Peace!

[Crusafix]

I can appreciate that there are flaws in the proposed solution by the OP. There surely are reasons why people would feel "smurfing" to play with friends protects their elo, but there needs to be some kind of solution that can protect the risks playing with less experienced friends has while repairing the integrity of the game.
The solution that is always offered when the discussion concerns improving the mega bot or player development always seems to be getting to 1200+ which admittedly is an argument I also take problems with as some other posters have pointed out. I myself am around the 1300 mark and find that the 1200+ gameplay is far less enjoyable. I like that the meta is larger in the mega bot as many units shine in cross situations and the ones that are better solo still have their times to shine. I think the argument that we are the ones unwilling to learn new approaches to the game is pretty broad and ignorant, I feel like it is the older players who have proven time and time again that they are unwilling to have changes made to the game. I also recognize that the mega bot is considered to be "bottom of the barrel" in terms of players, but that is a direct consequence of the limited support it is receiving. I don't mean to say that the devs of the game are doing a terrible job, just that it is a game the unfrequently makes changes and as the game has evolved there has been limited attempts to resolve issues that some of the community feels are detracting from the game.
@vendeta I realize that some of the changes might be unappealing to you, but to be fair you are playing in the 1200+ lobby so if those rules better fulfill the experience you want to gain from the game then why are you so committed to suggestions being brought forward by the mega bot community. I don't want to suggest that your opinion doesn't matter at all, surely I feel that veterans of the game that prefer 1200+ clearly have meaningful insight that would help the mega bot, but there are also long time players who enjoy the mega bot and would rather see it improve.

@Crusafix22

[Hakuna]

@Vendeta
Ok bro, that's fine. You don't have to accept my apology. That doesn't change the fact that proper grammar is still going to produce a more convincing argument. I said it more for your sake than for mine.

But look when you decide that crossing is only for noobs and doesn't belong in competitive play, and to say that it takes more skill to build solo, I have to take issue with that. It is a different meta. I accept that. I would argue that both cross and solo take equal amounts of knowledge and skill. I also would agree that in general, crossing is stronger than solo, but that doesn't mean it takes any less skill. It just allows for stronger builds, but it also has weaknesses that solo lanes don't, and there are units which don't work in a cross which are strong in solo. Both are viable strategies that I believe contribute in a positive way to the game and I think a lot of players agree with me, which is why so many people who are 1200+ play in the Mega bot.

[Augustinus]

@Jabba41 thanks for making this effort to respond. The bot with 1200+ and Mega rules would be a good compromise I feel.

@Vendetta
I can still summarize your argument to "People who play Mega are dumb, go play a different game". You do realise that the 1200+ rules are different and thus the meta is different too? The contra arguments to your position are posted above now several times, I would just like to point out (again), that you can not explain the whole concept of building AND lumber management AND enemy weakness spotting in a chat with 30 sec allowance time. And more than that, the new player would have to be some sort of super brain to get it all right immediately and even then he still has to play according to that without making major mistakes.

Furthermore I really disagree on your philosphy regarding the game. I think new players and different skill lvls are part of the player base and players from all skill lvls must be handled with care and be welcome to the game. I don't want to have 70-80% of the player base excluded from some elitist game concept that will be forever sealed for them unless they are so lucky to have a very experienced player to introduce them to "the circle".

[bratmi]

Since there is a lot of talk about the different meta when cross is allowed/not allowed, I think I have to point out one more thing.

At the low skill level, LTD with cross allowed may seem like a different game, but still an interesting one. Once you get better you will realize it really isn't. If played correctly, games have pretty much no variety at all, there are like one or two levels of relevance, units matter a lot more regarding who will win, and in the same time they matter a lot less in how the game will go. That's why it is not played on high-skill/competitive level.

Edit:
Therefore, a 1200+ cross bot would be pointless.

Edit:
PS: While on the topic of variety in games, IMO 1v1 LTD is underrated.

[Vendeta]

There is no such thing as pro mega player. Mega metas with cross and shit are just terrible.

I just tryed to give u good advice in the first place, telling u that if u want more competitive games U WONT GET IT IN MEGA, and that if u already spend so much time loving this game, then try to improve, instead of wasting your time in mega.

But, u guys just dont want to hear it, instead of it, you are trying to justify mega metas and cross to me, which cant happen, because, i repeat, mega is lowest noob bot. There is a reason why is an insult when u call someone "mega".

[Augustinus]

Man, I am trying to ignore your insulting remarks all the time but I will speak out loud now: You are saying mega players (including us) are dumb and can therefore be ignored, yet you fail to grasp or respond to any argument here. You have posted the same stuff here already six times and you area accusing other players of not being able to think outside the box?

[Hakuna]

@Jabba41
I just want to know if you can point me to any threads or even just summarize some of the reasons. I read through the whole Subforum and only found one Thread that somewhat addressed similar issues.

From what I understand, cross is viewed as a strategy that allows new players easier learning experience, so is left in MEGA bot, but 1200+ is where the true experience that was intended begins. To me this is a huge diservice, because a whole different meta forms around crossing which makes playing in 1200+ rules harder for people who have spent so much time in the cross meta, and honestly I think the cross meta is valuable even and shouldn't be eradicated. I would like for there to be a cross unranked/1200+ as well as a no-cross unranked/1200+. That is what I think would best serve the existing community and metas.

[Hakuna]

@Augustinus
Your fine mind and time are being wasted on these narrow-minded individuals. It is sadly why I get so riled up and lose my cool, they just will never bend.

To further discuss the topic under intelligent terms, I'd like to point out a few things:

In the cross meta there are eight units which dominate the scene:

• Elite Archers
• Aqua spirits
• Spawn of Dragons
• Orc Warchiefs
• Nightmares
• Dwarven Engineers
• Goblin Blasters
• Skeletors

To me, these are the units that can actually make a decent/viable cross. Other units which are valuable but not to be played as a cross would include:

• Prisoners
• Knights
• Revenants
• Druids
• Disciples
• Lord of Death
• Infantry
• Meat Wagons
• Phantoms
• Harlots
• Yggdrasil
• Machine turrets
• Sea Giants

I probably missed some important ones, but that's the majority coming to mind right now. Now, that being stated, the important waves to consider within the cross meta:

• Warriors on 1
• Furbs on 2
• BOs on 3
• 5 vs spawns/engineers
• 7 vs team without spawn/ygg/harlot
• 8 vs harlot/spawn
• 10 vs ygg
• 12 vs team without knights/skeletors/griffins
• 13 vs team without ea/infantry/turrets
• 14 vs team without blasters/knights/warchiefs
• Demons+ on 15
• Double demons on 17
• Double demons on 18
• 20 vs team without griffins/hydras/meridians
• 22 vs team without ambassadors/mutants
• Double demons on 24
• Double demons on 27
• Double demons on 28
• 31

Now I realize that it's possible that the meta in 1200+ is more diverse and has more options for strong sends, but to call MEGA a noob and unintersting meta just isn't correct. Some units aren't valuable in MEGA that might be more valuable in 1200+, I admit, but at the same time some units like Skeletors can only be played effectively as YOLO and not holder in the no-cross meta, so it actually provides LESS diverse options.

[Vendeta]

Anyone can play cross. Not everyone can play solo. Thats the "noob" difference.

[Hakuna]

Anyone can play cross. Not everyone can play solo. Thats the "noob" difference.

I disagree. Anyone cannot play a cross successfully. That is an extreme over-simplification. It is very easy to mess up a cross build. There are actually more factors involved in holding a cross well, because you have to take into account building delay as well.

As for building solo it's true that many people in MEGA will build solo, screw up, and "suicide" into their lane partner. When this is a mistake and not a conscious choice, I agree it is a weakness of the meta. It is a failsafe which allows people more freedom to be bad.

[Vendeta]

U say that i repeat myself, well yea, i do. Because u refuse to hear that mega is bad bot, and its meant for newbies. But thats just how it is.