Unranked Legion TD Bot

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Hakuna
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Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Hakuna » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:36 pm

Newly phrased proposal:

I believe a bot should be made which has an ELO cutoff similar to the current 1200+ bot which has all the same rules as the current MEGA bot.

The reason I think this is a relevant suggestion is due to the fact playing the two bots (1200+ and MEGA) do not require the same skillset and just because you enjoy one does not mean you enjoy the other. Players like myself who would like to play with the option of cross build but want higher competition should be given that option, in my opinion.

I would be willing to buy one of the CD keys to host this bot, and my friend Crusafix also feels this way. I am not aware how many keys are needed for a bot so if that information could be shared it would be helpful.

Thanks for reading.


Below is the original post for this thread:
Just a suggestion:

Make an Unranked LTD bot that doesn't affect ELO but tracks win/loss. Make it so that the regular bot requires a minimum of something like 20-30 games, so that people who have never played before learn a thing or two before they start costing us good honest players so much ELO having to teach them.

This also will solve the issue of smurfs (in my opinion) because smurfs will exit the unranked bot with a win/loss of something like 28/2 most likely.

If it would be too troublesome to track win/loss without changing elo, or if there is some other reason why that would be a bad thing, then just make a seperate stat, unshown, which tracks how many games on the unranked bot you have and require at least 30 games in that bot OR in the normal bot to play in the normal bot. (To prevent regular players from having to grind the unranked bot for no reason)

Yea? Nea? I think it would be a great way to offer a stomping grounds for testing new strategies as well as a place for noobs to learn to spread their wings without being constantly either forced to income for a more experienced player, micromanaged their every move, or having them throw the game when they do something dumb.
Last edited by Hakuna on Fri Apr 27, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Augustinus » Sun Mar 18, 2018 2:35 am

I support your idea. It is maybe not perfect but a good approach to deal with the problems we have.

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Hakuna » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:10 am

Well if it's not perfect, (which I am perfectly happy to concede) then please, point out the imperfections and maybe a more refined solution could be crafted!
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby bratmi » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:46 pm

First, I am not sure how much of an issue that is, since games are not autobalanced and people can chose who they want to play with.

Anyway, I guess currently the idea is that the "mega" bot serves the purpose of your suggested unranked bot, and once you reach 1200 you can play on the 1200+ bot. The drawback is that you don't have a bot for "higher level" games where cross is allowed. This can be solved easier than your suggestion by having separate 1200+ bot where cross is allowed, if there are enough players who want that.

Edit: As for new players experimenting, I think you are right that they could use a ground where they are able to just play without interference. Note that with the exception of cooperating/sending together, there aren't too many restrictions on what you are allowed to do in the game. No one will ban a new player for not following the orders of a "better" player. Perhaps gameplay rules can be reduced even further on the mega bot. Personally, my position is that gameplay rules can be removed alltogether and just let the ELO rating take care of it. But my impression is that very few people want that.

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Vendeta » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:05 pm

Just try learn enuff to get 1200 elo, then go to 1200elo bot.

When u get there, try to learn enuff, and observe some lihl games, and try join lihl.

And thats the best what u can do if u like this game. Dealing with mega, new players, etc, is waste of time.

But my advice to you is to get some friends with whom u can play this game. Thats the best way to play, and enjoy this game, since u will always have tkers, flamers, ego-maniacs and idiots. Play with friends and have fun.
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby bratmi » Tue Mar 20, 2018 5:39 pm

Though I wanted to answer your questions directly, I agree with most of what Vendetta said.

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Hakuna » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:43 am

Vendeta wrote:Just try learn enuff to get 1200 elo, then go to 1200elo bot.

When u get there, try to learn enuff, and observe some lihl games, and try join lihl.

And thats the best what u can do if u like this game. Dealing with mega, new players, etc, is waste of time.

But my advice to you is to get some friends with whom u can play this game. Thats the best way to play, and enjoy this game, since u will always have tkers, flamers, ego-maniacs and idiots. Play with friends and have fun.


Ok clearly I didn't clarify much, but I feel like you literally said zero that contributes specifically to me.

A) Learning: I happen to have authored a Legion TD Wiki. Can you say that? Can anyone? I have not seen a decent wiki for Legion TD ( Link ). OBVIOUSLY everyone has more they can learn, but your point basically to me says "you are too ignorant otherwise you would already be 1200+/lihl", which if that is in fact your stance you are the ignorant one.

B) Observe LIHL games: I can't claim to have extensive experience here since it's not often that I notice one going on that I am welcomed to observe, but I have in fact already participated in one of the ENT-hosted tournaments as well as observing an LIHL match once. While I do respect good players and certainly think they have a lot of knowledge that helps them make the best decision given the information available to them, there is really not that much to playing Legion TD from a mechanical perspective, so all that it is to get good is more and more knowledge and experience. Therefore I would say that playing LIHL may be great and all and does represent some of the most experienced players we have, but at the same time any player who plays conscienciously and pays attention to what is happening to learn all that they can from every game they play will learn the same things. Also, watching LIHL only helps if that is the gaming experience that I wish to pursue. I personally find that the meta that has formed around being allowed to cross is one that I have deep appreciation and respect for and would not wish on a whim to move on from it. Perhaps I will find I enjoy some things about 1200+ rules too when I get there but for now I really do like the strategies and meta revolving around being allowed to cross and merge.

C) Get friends who play: This comment is the least relevant to me and I can't exactly fault you for it, but I DO play with friends. I have two friends in real life that I play with quite often, one more who joins us seldomly, and two friends from playing on ENT who I play with quite often as well.

Finally I will address your point about ignoring the MEGA bot, and new players.

The Mega bot exists for many reasons:
  • It has its own meta
  • It has a consistently active playerbase
  • It is the only place for new players to learn how to play in a competitive environment
  • It is the best place to play with friends when you are interested in a casual Legion game

If I have any interest in new players joining the game who will keep it alive then I want them to be encouraged to keep playing. It is people like you that just couldn't give two fucks about new players that are the problem. You are the type of player that dodges a lobby or changes teams to avoid being on new players teams. I for one am not. I willingly participate in new players' learning experience, helping them figure out how to play smart and as a team and I frequently refer them to the Wiki that I authored. The problem for me is that many new players are already so frustrated with other people treating them poorly that they won't listen and won't cooperate. They haven't had anyone treat them nicely so they won't even give anyone a chance. Some of the people like that might just be like that but I have a very strong suspicion that they are completely used to being treated like trash.

New players are the most important people in the game in my opinion. Without them the game will stagnate and die. I consider it both an imperitve and also a worthwhile challenge to learn how best to teach new players.
Last edited by Hakuna on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Hakuna » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:52 am

Let me also point out that both of you ONLY addressed the issue as pertains to me, and showed zero concern or interest in the effect my suggestion would have on the players themselves that would be given a platform on which to learn how to play.

Personally, if I had no clue what units were good, I would far prefer not to be costing some team-mate who works hard for their ranking ELO due to my lack of experience. I would want to play in a mode where if I messed up nobody on my team would lose ELO for it.

My response to Bratmi's edit to add his thoughts about new players:

Even just sending/cooperating is a learning curve that throws a wrench in many games. For instance a new player stays 5/1 through arena. Now you are completely handicapped as a team because any send only has the strength of three players behind it. Or another scenario, a new player sends a whelp on 1. (one of the most common things I see) Now your team's send on 2 or 3 is extremely weaker than it should be and you won't even get a scout mid most times unless you happened to hit the whelp on someone greeding something that would have leaked to warriors (which is becoming less common in my experience). Basically every mistake new players make is usually flamed and sometimes votekicked, and even sometimes people say they are reporting them. I realize that the moderators may not actually ban the new players, since they are new and didn't know better, but what a toxic learning environment. Not to mention, the one friend in real life that I mentioned seldomly plays with us DID actually get banned for some such action, on his fifth game! The guy has zero experience playing Legion TD, unlike some people who play on different bots or hellhalt or whatever, has zero WC3 experience, has zero knowledge of the game/rules in general besides what we've told him, and in his attempts to play by himself to get better so when he played with us he would be able to contribute more, he gets banned. That's fucked up.
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Vendeta » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:29 am

Well okay, i only wanted to help u, and instead of that i get flamed :D

U trying to make yourself look smart with long posts, which noone will read (including me, i read maybe half of it).

But try to understand that u wont get new bot. Not a chance. U say how u like cross ? Play cross then with newbies, and keep quiet about it, instead of asking ent to move them away from u, but telling me how u appreciate new players. Fuck off. Pure contradiction.

Try to understand, since u are so clever, and u have a lot experience, and bla bla, whatever u wrote, there is a reason why is cross only allowed in mega. In lowest, noobiest bot. In worst bot where any fool with just a bit of ltd knowledge goes with new account (smurf) and makes like 25/2 score. Thats how bad that bot is.

I clicked on your link. I clicked on builds, saw 1st unit wolverine. U typed: "Wave 1: Build three Orc Warriors and upgrade them to Blood Orc Warriors. [300g value]".
And that was enuff for me to see how u wasted your time to create this LTD Wiki, and if u learn new players to play like that... or if YOU are playing like that then, sir, i have to say you are a noob.

All i was trying to tell u is that u cant learn anything in mega. And that u should seek for more competitive games. But u are just pure noob mega player who likes noob cross, and u should stick with mega, and deal with your new players, as u said u enjoy it.

So, with all being sad, i have nothing else for you, i wish u all the best, and happy gaming.

Peace !
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Jabba41 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:35 am

Im interested in your guys opinions on this topic. Thats why it isnt moved into a locked area already ^^

But please dont take stuff personal @hakuna and please note that a bot like you suggested wont happen. There are a lot of disadvantages that you can find iin the suggestion archive.

Anyway im glad hear any concerns about the current setup.
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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby bratmi » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:42 am

@Jabba41
I'm pretty sure I explained why the issues @hakuna suggested have much easier solutions, but he only bothered to read the part that he could use to add to his flame war...

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Augustinus » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:24 am

I started to play LTD Mega on ENT more than 4 years ago and I have to say what I was whitnessing back then as normal behaviour would qualify as teamkill now. Almost none of the players on Mega games was familiar with any existing meta, so even saving alone was granting you a win mostly.

As the years have gone by the community has become more familiar with strategic approaches and now you stand no chance if you are not following certain groundlaying tactics, such as saving, building close to the mid, having good lumber push at arena, calculate resources to hold with the king early on and observing the game to make the right calls.

To follow all these on the first games while not knowing unit combinations is a lot to ask from a new player and it has become too much to babysit.
Only two years ago some experienced players claimed here that they would mostly win with noobs in the team and it would just be a matter of attitude to teach them the right steps. I also recall playing a lot against stacking teams with ELO ratios like 25/5 or even worse and winning a reasonable percentage of games. All of this is not possible anymore today. Why? Because the general knowledge of the player base since then has improved a lot and the little freedoms to make mistakes has been diminished. So one good player who is advising newcomers is not enough to compensate for their mistakes and lack of game knowledge.

An example:
The lobby:
A reasonable good player, player #1 is joining a Mega game. He is the first in the lobby. player #2, who has a score or 0/2 and 976 ELO joins then. player #3, who has only mediocre stats joins, sees that player #2 is in his team and goes down to the enemy team to avoid playing with him. More players join, and the ones who are familiar with the game and the meta will switch to team east, because they see that player #3 is normal and team west has a very questionable dude in the team. Now lets say player #1 and player #2 are still in team west and another player with 1000 ELO and zero games has joined. He stays in team west. More normal players join to the last missing spot in team west but immediatley leave the lobby after checking !scores. In the end another player with 1/5 and 950 ELO joins and stays in team west.

The game:
As the game begins player #2 sends a whelp before player #1 can make any approach to influence him. This is resulting in the first send being weak and buying a lot of time at lvl 1, which gives team east more resources to send at lvl 3. The three new players overbuild at first, so team west is not leaking during the first lvls. However because the new players have low income, the team can't save a lot of lumber. Player #1 is encouraging the other players to push their lumber instead of building, which they finally agree to around lvl 6. They manage to go around 6/1 each. Only player #1 had 7/2 ,which is not too much, but fair enough considering that he can not expect to have a holder. The first lvl, where the team leaks is lvl 7. They leak a lot despite being overbuilt and because the team has very low lumber, they don't manage to up the king. They lose 3 heals in the process.They can not send and decide to up the king, which is barely possible. At lvl 10 they have 8/12/6. The new players refuse to push more, because they still leaked some units at 8 and are getting worried about holding. At lvl 10 another send is incoming and team west leaks 6 bosses. They lose another heal and barely survive. After lvl 10 the new players finally agree to upgrade some lumber and manage to go 7/2 each on arena. The team east however has a very good push with all of them being 7/5 or better.
Player #1 realises that the game is probably not winnable anymore unless the team west has two leavers or someone there starts to teamkill. He is still trying to teach the newcomers in their unit choice and positioning and is making a call to send for income at lvl 12. Despite him telling them not to do so, they build for lvl 12 and push their lumber very reluctantly. They don't understand what merging is and finally swap one aura. Unfortunately player #2 has built around the mid area so player #1 can't build on him to merge. They are further upgrading the king, but team east manages to send lvl 15. Team west has normal value, but no one that merged and is not able to hold the adds. The king dies here.

Conclusion:
One player can not compensate three new players. The new players don't even have to be stubborn or malicious, even if they are only slow or don't grasp important concepts as the game is ongoing, it is enough to destroy the whole game for their team. The chat is a very bad tool to explain basic elements of the game to new players and there is no room for further explanations. So even in an ideal game with three newcomers the newcomers will be like slaves to the experienced one and probably draw no pleasure from this game at all. Furthermore how should you be able to understand a concept and actively play to reach abstract goals when you can't be learning by doing which would necessarily include mistakes being made. Also the new players will not have enough experience to perceive the failures as consequences of their actions. They will likely accuse player #1 for leaking huge at 7, while they only leaked 30% each, while the lack of king updates is not perceived as their fault. They will also not see the problem in being only 7/1 at lvl 10, when they see that they have the recommended value at lvl 11.

My recommendation:
Make another league of Mega games without scores or pressure to play by the current meta like the OP suggested. Give newcomers room to breathe and try tactics. Improve their skills and learn how they can orchestrate a successfull game by teamplaying.

Further toughts:
I would like ENT to address the smurfs. Smurfs are distorting the meaningfullness of stats in ENT and in normal Mega games they are the mystery players where you never know what to expect from. Maybe some stats system that is connected to an ENT account on which a WC3 account must be registered to play. Upon reaching 30 games or a number maybe 10 wins, when you would enter the normal Mega games, the WC3 account must be connected to an ENT account to join Mega games. The stats and ELO are saved for the ENT account only and games from all connected WC3 account will be written on each WC3 account. Every player can only have one ENT account.
With both, a league for newcomers and a fix ENT account the statistics would be more true to the skill and you can have a better impression of players joining the lobby while not having to deal with a blank paper when encountering inexperienced players.
Last edited by Augustinus on Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby bratmi » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:00 pm

@Augustinus TLDR:
1. Reduce gameplay rules on mega bot.
2. Switch from Elo to Glicko.

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Augustinus » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:04 pm

Reduction of rules? Explain please, because the way I see it, it won't help with anything anything at all if not less BRQs to review for the ent stuff.

EDIT: It seems we are talking to a wall of ignorance. @Jabba41 can you at least collect the reasons why the suggested game mode won't happen here? The way LTD is played has changed a lot in the last time and also the game itself has been adjusted. Why should the same arguments from the last 1-3 years be valid as if nothing happened? I think "go 1200+" is not an argument regarding the Mega games and even if I would consider it an argument, it would imply that being to lazy to put this mode up is the winning argument. And those arrogant remarks are the only thing I have read here against the OPs request.
Last edited by Augustinus on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Unranked Legion TD Bot

Postby Vendeta » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:23 pm

U guys are so terroble wrong. U want new bot just for new players so that they can learn options, metas, and tactics? Who will teach them that? U would have a bot with bunch of newbies who doesnt know what they doing at all, with noone to show them anything.

U want more competitive and better games, without newbies, but u want do get that without leaving noob bottom bot? Mega is disagned for that actually, so that new players can learn some basics in this game, and when they get pretty much normal player (1200+ elo) they can go on a bot which is a bit different, but for sure more competitive than mega. So u cant ask to get a new bot for noobs amd newbies, when u already have that and its called Mega.

As for the smurfs, some people go with firends in mega to play for fun with friends, but they dont wamt to ruin their stas on main account, or they just have hogh accounts, amd they dont wamt 5o play for 2 elo, and risking 28. I guess its a waste of time for ent moderators, who already have a lot on their hands, to starts searchijg for smurfs, catching bunch of players, just so u could feel comfortable in yoir mega cross game.

My advoce for u is the same:
Get 1200 elo, get out of mega, play some 1200, get more experience, and fry join LIHL. If u already that competitive. U say that you play mega 4 years now, i can tell u that u have simply wasted a lot of time.

U guys just have to realise, the new bot u are asking for is already there, and its called MEGA.So yes, any time u ask for mods to get u a new bot, because u wamt mega to be mlre competitive, u will ALWAYS get the same answer: u want more competitive games? Go play 1200, or lihl. U dont get better than that.
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