Early signs

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KiwiLeKiller
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Re: Early signs

Postby KiwiLeKiller » Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:53 pm

I could've signed for that game, but I knew I had to go in 40ish minutes. Knowing that many people early sign recently, I decided not to sign. And you know what? This is exactly what happened: If I signed, I would not have been able to play anyway, because 4(!) fucking people don't show up.

I took the decision of not signing because I knew something like that was likely to happen.

This is how LIHL is nowadays, if you sign, you need to make sure you got time to wait 5 minutes in lobby before game starts, that people will likely go AFK during game, etc. Games used to be 35ish minutes and now they are what, 40-45 minutes?

This is how LIHL is nowadays and I am the only one willing to change it because it is very disrespectful for everyone and yet I am the one to blame and the one creating drama? Moderators are breaking rules and try to find excuses...

@HazarDous
Finally, are you trying to diagnose me a personality disorder? Or maybe it is a bipolar disorder? You may want to prescribe medication for my troubles now that you're at it.
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Re: Early signs

Postby HazarDous » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:06 pm

Jamo wrote:I think the rules should be updated and I actually thought with Mesh and Achilles case, this actually happened! Now we have the same case and different handling of the situation, doesn't make sense to me!


Sigh. Because I am moderator does not mean I am forbidden from giving my opinion on cases. Someone else will process this "case". I would have happily thrown this out of the window already solely based on the fact that Kiwi was not in the game. Just like I did here when mind rescinded his report: viewtopic.php?f=85&t=119062

If you ( @Jamo ) were to report it again, then my opinion is that this deserves a warning, at most. This is a case which really is not a big deal. It's been blown this out of proportion for no reason. Shit happened, everyone apologized, no one was 'harmed', so yeah... as a player, I would like to tell you to get over it. Either you will keep getting sniped by early sign, or you will start early signing and eventually find yourself on the other side of the issue. That's why I'm saying we need to use common sense and understanding with such a difficult situation with no (immediate) solution.

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Re: Early signs

Postby TinSoldier » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:14 pm

Jamo wrote:And the only ones I feel kind of sorry for are king controllers.


PREACH MY NIGGA. Yes it is kind of sad how often i get sniped because i am controlling king till the last moment =(

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Re: Early signs

Postby Crazy_Skeleton » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:21 pm

LOL!
1. If this is a ban request by KIWI :?
2. and KIWI was not even signed for the game that has been forced to be cancelled (sry again for that) :shock:
Plz close the topic, cause U cannot ban request for a game u were not in. :roll:

If it is true KiVVI that U report us for not joining the game u were not signed in.. It would be most ridulous report I have every seen. :lol: :lol: :lol:
No offence KIVI, no disrispect. ;)

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Re: Early signs

Postby Jamo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:09 pm

@Hazardous I just think it's inconsequent when some get punished for it and others don't. And since I already thought the first punishment was totally unnecessary, I don't care much about a punishment now. What I want is people to see that they shouldn't do it. Saying sorry later, yea, sorry but I don't buy it most of the times... I want people to stop doing this shit instead of later saying "ups sorry we didnt know they don't die". OK, then don't sign until you win/lose and there won't be any problem. People got sniped before Discord and peoeple will get sniped now and all the times, this will not change, how could it?! But on the side annoying everybody else as well, is just unncessary. Just find a solution, e.g. by forbidding it??, and that's it. I don't see why this can't be done.

edit: Btw, I would have reported it here if Kiwi wouldn't have. So, no need to close the thread because Kiwi wasn't ingame.

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Re: Early signs

Postby HazarDous » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:43 pm

Jamo wrote: But on the side annoying everybody else as well, is just unncessary. Just find a solution, e.g. by forbidding it??, and that's it. I don't see why this can't be done.

edit: Btw, I would have reported it here if Kiwi wouldn't have. So, no need to close the thread because Kiwi wasn't ingame.


Go read: viewtopic.php?f=207&t=117417&start=15

There is no immediate solution...

For those who think I am being "inconsistent", you should read my last response.
you should not sign for the next game unless you can assess the king is going to die. Otherwise, the risk you sign and the game goes on increases a lot, causing drama in the league.


The only thing we can do atm to keep a good atmosphere is to have understanding and tolerance on both sides until the technical fix is applied on the bot. I've explained it enough times already Jamo. If you assess the king will die and early sign, and it doesn't, then apologize and shit happens. If someone got TK'ed by it, I can very well understand the report. But in cases where no harm was done, then, as I said, you should learn to be more tolerant.


You should ask yourself: What's the point of reporting? So people stop early signing? You assume that they won't want to get a ban, and therefore they will stop early signing. However, if they stop early signing, they get sniped and miss out on more games. Seems rather paradoxical to me.

TL;DR; Use common sense and be tolerant. If someone signs before sending, then you have a reason to be angry.

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Re: Early signs

Postby Jamo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:00 am

Sorry, I really do not understand your point, also not in the post you linked and also why this cannot be handled with rules. I also do not see why it's me now who has to be "more tolerant" when people cause this annoyingness twice within 5 minutes with the same shit and I should be tolerating it and be more relaxed about it when clearly nobody from the other side agrees to any of the points. On top of that, how can one take such "sorry" words for granted with the posts you make here. It is VERY clear, that you don't mean it at all, because otherwise you just wouldn't do it. I don't do it, and still I can play lihl, strange... (yes, Ace can quote me on one time I did it way back now, but I am not doing it ever since because of the things I mentioned). To me this all seems just super egoistic behavior and is the opposite of what I expect in a league like this. Respect looks different.

edit:
"You should ask yourself: What's the point of reporting? So people stop early signing?"
YES

"You assume that they won't want to get a ban, and therefore they will stop early signing."
YES

"However, if they stop early signing, they get sniped and miss out on more games. Seems rather paradoxical to me."
Uhm, did you read what you just wrote? Where is the logic in this one? If nobody early signs, nobody gets sniped by early signs and there is no paradoxical, is there? I guess we can then just omit all rules, since they don't matter, people do what they want anyhow...
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Im_Halp (Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:36 am) • KiwiLeKiller (Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:10 am)

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Re: Early signs

Postby KiwiLeKiller » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:45 am

Ok so let's imagine something:
We play a game, someone goes AFK for an excessive period of time. Game gets drawn and everyone plays next game, no problem.

No matter how the game was going, to the advantage of a team or another, the player still went AFK and broke the rule. If someone was to report him, would he get ban? Yes, because he broke a rule, no matter if someone got "hurt" by it.
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Re: Early signs

Postby HazarDous » Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:57 am

Kiwi wrote:Ok so let's imagine something:
We play a game, someone goes AFK for an excessive period of time. Game gets drawn and everyone plays next game, no problem.

No matter how the game was going, to the advantage of a team or another, the player still went AFK and broke the rule. If someone was to report him, would he get ban? Yes, because he broke a rule, no matter if someone got "hurt" by it.


Yes, because there's an impact. The same situation happens, but the player comes back at 6th minute and game goes on. Player does not get a ban. He would not be reported either because ... common sense. The only logical reason behind reporting the AFKer would be that he went afk to get food for 6 minutes, hence a lack of respect for others.


Jamo wrote:Uhm, did you read what you just wrote? Where is the logic in this one? If nobody early signs, nobody gets sniped by early signs and there is no paradoxical, is there? I guess we can then just omit all rules, since they don't matter, people do what they want anyhow...


So how do you expect to decide who plays and who doesn't ? By !rolling ?

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Re: Early signs

Postby nicolai123 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:06 am

The amount of time we have spent arguing about this issue is greater than the combined amount of wasted time from people signing too early. I'm sorry i just had to point out this irony :D.
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bezdak (Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:07 pm) • Jamo (Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:13 am) • HazarDous (Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:06 am)

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Re: Early signs

Postby supersexyy » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:00 am

You sign early you get banned, simple solution. Or you can only sign once your game is over (limited by a bot script).
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Re: Early signs

Postby Jamo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:05 am

edit:
This post seems to be misunderstood, again. Feel free to delete
Last edited by Jamo on Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Early signs

Postby Crazy_Skeleton » Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:34 am

Lets take a side opinions and look on reality. EVERY fckING SINGLE GAME PPLE SIGN EARLY! They did sign before this post and they do after it.

!E V E R Y! GAME every1 sign early. Such situation WILL happen in the nearest future constantly. Now it is up to the reason if some1 is exploiting early sign or it was just a mistake.

If we are going to ban mistakes, I can make report everyday on some1, including TOP 10 here. Ofc it ould be pointless and no sense, not mantioning bad attitude.

Ofc I do agree with @jamo on:
1. failed early signs should not happen and every1 should be really aware of that
2. rules for every1 must be d same

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Re: Early signs

Postby FadingSuns » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:10 am

We need to sepparate also those who are consistently takin the risk with early signs than rest. Many ppl signs when game is about to end, when the leaks are going mid. And there are also pure abusers that consistentl sign 2/3 lvls before game ends.

We also got the issue about ppl early signing because they think game gona end, it doesnt end, but they never unsing. Abusers should be threated differently because in the most cases they are the ones who lead rest to fail and tk early sign for not get sniped.

I guess we all know who are the abusers. Or do i need to list them?

My common sense tells me we should not apply the same rule for all, and abusers should be chased asap. This will for sure cut the problem and reduce the cases to sporadic cases and not daily cases.

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Re: Early signs

Postby dweiler » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:15 am

Maybe it's good to see how we came to the decision to treat early signs like we do. This is a bit of repetition what @Hazardous said before and @Fadingsuns said in the previous post as well.

First of all: we would have preferred to have kept the old signing system, where you can just sign once you left a game. However, this is not possible at the moment, so we need something else to regulate this. I think there are broadly 3 ways to deal with it:
1. Try banning all 'early signs' (before game ended)
2. Unvouch everyone who is unable to play within 5 minutes because they wrongfully signed.
3. Act on people who on purpose take risks and don't take others into account and excuse the others.

We decided to go for the 3rd option. #1 is for me not really an option, because it is not enforceable. Especially if people get sniped because some secretly sign 2,3 seconds too early, we are completely powerless.

We also decided not to go for #2 because we don't want to be unvouching people with no bad intentions. If you genuinely believe the game is over seeing the leaks, and you sign and you see you made a mistake, we find it too hard a penalty that you cannot play all evening anymore for that. It's an honest mistake, made possible by the non-optimal circumstances.

So in the end we chose option #3, to distinguish between people who take risks on purpose for their own sake (signing 2,3 levels early without knowing if it will end) and people who made an honest mistake signing. This is what @FadingSuns for example did with da_pwnerer, when he let him sit out that game after pwnerer signed early for the 2nd time in one game.

There are pro's and con's to both #2 and #3, for example #2 is more clear, #3 is more fair that you don't get punished for a mistake, #2 gets 'well-intended' players unvouched #3 lets other players wait in lobby for long.

You can also say that no matter how 'sure' you are, you still take a risk by signing before the king actually died, so you can be punished for it. I am not insensitive to all those arguments, and there is a lot to say for #2 too, but this is the option we chose, as a decision between several choices which all had ups and downs. That is the decision of the mods, but if you think a majority of the people would rather have #2, you are welcome to do a poll about it, and I will have no problems carrying out #2 if it turns out most people prefer that.
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