Selling value

[Don_Killuminati]

I still believe that making a rule to avoid clog without interfere with viable strats is quite impossible proved by past and current rules ( not allowed to be under 50% val recommanded or not allowed to sell more than 200g ). Both rules impact non abusive strats and allow you to clog with one hundred possibilitys, even worse, some ppls tend to forget the initial intention of 'what the rule was made for'.
So as i said before, i trully believe that the best way to avoid/cut most of clogs is to make a simple rule about it :
Do not clog and each case would be reviewed by moderators.

[Meshtar]

New map, to which we will transition eventually, has apparently made clog a lot less viable right? @Broud3r ?
This shouldn't be just about this or that particular rule, but about us wanting clear non arbitrary rules or moderator per case judgement.

[Jamo]

I'm on the easy rule side here clearly. There are enough not so easy cases to decide, so at least keep it simple in this regard.
"Do not sell more than 200 val" is totally fine for me. No excuses. One can go to 220 val if we think it's stupid to exclude some specifit units but not others, would be fine with me.
But I also wouldn't make it more complicated because maybe with the new version, which I guess at some point will be implemented, we won't need such a rule anymore?

[broud3r]

The current published one reduced clog a bit which got sadly negated by some pathing errors.
However made a change to the pathing which eliminates clog completly but not sure when i can afford to release it yet.

[Don_Killuminati]

If you guys fine with getting clogged and not allowed to suicide freely let it be.
Lets say ON BROUDER WE TRUST!

[TinSoldier]

Seems the issue is a combination of how OP suicide is, and the anti clog measure being added to the map forcing faster games (I.e creeps move faster to the king etc) making yolo a less viable strategy as rounds are moving faster and faster. So we gonna be making a move towards two extremes, hold and suicide

[FadingSuns]

First of all im sorry for the long speech ima say now.

Ima start telling that all that i understand from all this is that we, at the end of all this, are debating on a question of we trust our mods or not. And let me develope the idea using an example mentioned here. "if i sell 2 accos after lvl 14 to make a mino is wrong?". Well, it can be banned or might not. Who judge it? The mods (me now, u in future, who cares). Scenarios:

1) U have 32 accos for lvl 14, and u got 400 value to waste on lvl 15 and ur rr is 50, since u got already 3200 value in accos u feel u need to rr for a tank. So u press the 500 rr button and rr shit (lets say u get idk, mino) so u press the 100 rr button and u get minos again, shiit luck, but since u need a tank u sell 3 accos for get a mino, u end holding thanks to it.... But theres a guy in ur team that is mad with u for X reason and reports u for selling 3 accos for making mino.

Should i just apply the rule and ban u because u sold 3 accos to get a mino on lvl 15? or judge ur case and determine u had 0 aim to clog but to hold? Are we deciding that mods are then robots whose only job is apply bans no matter what? Is that what lihl wants? Then we can put a monkey to mod?

2) U have a nice possibility to try hold 15 cuz u had 27 accos on lvl 13, but ur team decides u all clog on lvl 13 so u sell 2 accos, 2 more on 14, 3 accos on 15, make a mino on 15, waste 120 on delay on 15 and save 200 gold. Are u telling me that mods wont have the common sense to judge this? WHO JUDGES was asked. Maybe mods? Why are mod elected? Because we think is unbiased ppl, with good knowledge of the games (AND players) and capable to judge those cases... Isnt it?.

3) U have done 3 nm and u go "suicide", it happens that u got a lot of gold from lvl 7, 8, 9 and 10 due to crazy resends and king leaks from both teams. At the end of lvl 10 u got 500 gold and u rr 50. Nice! u got huge inc and can clear any lvl with the yggs u just rred. Are u telling me that u cant sell 2 nm in order to get a tok for arena and try to recover asap?. Im tired of see dead lines that luckily rr toks and sell all to make toks and try clear 14/15 (cuz he has holders on team and he needs clear if possible). So? if someone of his team is mad at him and report him for selling more than 200 (430 actually) should i ban him? or apply common sense?

I try to apply common sense when i judge. Are u guys scared of my common sense? I have ban friends and i also avoided to ban ppl that i "dislike" since im here. Is that u fear that we are not enought skilled to valuate and differentiate what are the intentions of ur actions? BTW u can always ask for a second oppinion. But let me explain something. Lihl mods have a private chat on discord, everytime we judge a case happens that someone review the case, then post the link to the reported case, and explain his judgement to rest of lihl mods and what is the penalty (or warning or whatever decission is) for the player/s involved. Then its discussed or agreed among several mods (its not always by all because we dont always online at same time). So at the end, i consider all of us enought skilled and unbiased, the only goal about being a mod is to keep this alive and stable, and im more close to my end being mod than other thing, so, this is not about me, im sure future mods will be able also to apply their common sense, because thats why they are selected, i trust the process... So, for me, all this discussion is based on one question: We trust our mods or not? if not then ok, lets go for the simple ruling. Its for sure more unfair but also more easy to apply. But also, i would say, ok, if we dont trust X mod (me for example) then what about to change that mod for someone that we actually trust? because for me, the experience gona be 2000 times better with this kind of modding. Apply "justice" to make the game more fair to all, reviewing cases and not judging always the same rule broken indpendently of rest.

[HazarDous]

(I.e creeps move faster to the king etc)

Off topic:
I asked broud3r, and apparently that isn't true. If anything, he says creeps move slower to king.

[Diablo_]

Imo this rule should be changed to:
Before level 10: don't sell more than 300 gold per level.
After level 10 and before first arena: you can sell any amount you want.
After first arena: selling is not allowed except for holding better (e.g. selling for tok upgrade etc.).

Imo selling on its own isn't lame or unfair or anything. It is only lame if it is used as a mean to clog more. Pre level 10 this only matters if e.g. the whole team sells at level 5 and goes 0 attack king vs 80 leaks or similar. This can be eliminated while still allowing rather high sell values (e.g. 300) for "normal" suiciding. If someone wants to go full push/suicide he can do so before arena start. After arena selling isn't necessary anymore as then it is only used to clog more in 99% of the cases.
So imo these changes would not only make suiciding "easier" and less restrictive but it would also reduce clog effectiveness 10+.

[broud3r]

Edit to the offtopic:
Units move indeed faster if you leak a high amount.
Leaking a small amount can result in a slower leak.
But the movement adjustment just applies if both teams leaked.

Spoiler!

The calculation of the movementspeed has been something like

Code: Select all

(30 + (total default bounty of leaks/100)) /35

So if you leak a small amount you leak slower than "normal" leaks if you leak more the leaks are faster.
E.g.

- 1 golem round 6 will have a speed of 85.5% of the normal speed.
- Leaking 50 golems will have the normal speed.

In general sends have a higher effect as they reward more bounty.
If just 1 team leaks the general adjustment is 95% starting from the dark green.
Note: numbers might be not 100% accurate as those value changed slightly since the implementation.

[TinSoldier]

Yes so what I'm referring to are the main levels such as 5,7 and 8 where you would expect high # of leaks, before when yolo was more common those rounds would take much longer with how the units travelled to king, now they move in such a way that full on yolo doesn't really pay off quite like it used to @hazardous

[Meshtar]

Imo this rule should be changed to:
Before level 10: don't sell more than 300 gold per level.
After level 10 and before first arena: you can sell any amount you want.
After first arena: selling is not allowed except for holding better (e.g. selling for tok upgrade etc.).

Imo selling on its own isn't lame or unfair or anything. It is only lame if it is used as a mean to clog more. Pre level 10 this only matters if e.g. the whole team sells at level 5 and goes 0 attack king vs 80 leaks or similar. This can be eliminated while still allowing rather high sell values (e.g. 300) for "normal" suiciding. If someone wants to go full push/suicide he can do so before arena start. After arena selling isn't necessary anymore as then it is only used to clog more in 99% of the cases.
So imo these changes would not only make suiciding "easier" and less restrictive but it would also reduce clog effectiveness 10+.

Sounds logical but I see many workarounds for this.
One guy can now sell all even if he was holder 10 (lets say infantry roll or harlots roll) and become a suicider and clogger since he sucks 10+ anyway. Other 3 lanes can go anti 14 but still make things that are crap for 15 and you still got a superclog 15. Instead of selling people will just focus on building dead value, so basically nothing gained towards reducing clog, except that now its easy to see rule violations.

[HazarDous]

Sounds logical but I see many workarounds for this.
One guy can now sell all even if he was holder 10 (lets say infantry roll or harlots roll) and become a suicider and clogger since he sucks 10+ anyway. Other 3 lanes can go anti 14 but still make things that are crap for 15 and you still got a superclog 15. Instead of selling people will just focus on building dead value, so basically nothing gained towards reducing clog, except that now its easy to see rule violations.

Let's assume the same situation but with the current rules.

10 holder sells 200 value before arena, 200 before 12, 200 before 13, 200 14, etc... He will clog more with low dead value than with no value at all by selling everything on 10 as you suggest. The only upside to selling everything on arena is that you can push more, right?

Most games, after arena, you can already push twice, which will bring you to near when the arena ends, anyway. If you want a third lumberjack between arena end and level 11 begin, just sell 200 value as it is currently allowed. In both situations, you can also push after 11 starts either by killing the wave or by using all the 1.6k value you'd have sold prior to arena.

TL;DR: So under this rule, you'd have the same push speed as the current rule, but clog less on 15 (less dead value to slow down).

There is also a downside to what you said. The enemy would know that you suicide, hence make you vulnerable to 12-13-14 sends, whereas other team will not know if you sell 200 and push after arena.

[Don_Killuminati]

Imo this rule should be changed to:
Before level 10: don't sell more than 300 gold per level.
After level 10 and before first arena: you can sell any amount you want.
After first arena: selling is not allowed except for holding better (e.g. selling for tok upgrade etc.).

Imo this fit better than the current rule. Good job Diablo !

[Meshtar]

Sounds logical but I see many workarounds for this.
One guy can now sell all even if he was holder 10 (lets say infantry roll or harlots roll) and become a suicider and clogger since he sucks 10+ anyway. Other 3 lanes can go anti 14 but still make things that are crap for 15 and you still got a superclog 15. Instead of selling people will just focus on building dead value, so basically nothing gained towards reducing clog, except that now its easy to see rule violations.

Let's assume the same situation but with the current rules.

10 holder sells 200 value before arena, 200 before 12, 200 before 13, 200 14, etc... He will clog more with low dead value than with no value at all by selling everything on 10 as you suggest. The only upside to selling everything on arena is that you can push more, right?

Most games, after arena, you can already push twice, which will bring you to near when the arena ends, anyway. If you want a third lumberjack between arena end and level 11 begin, just sell 200 value as it is currently allowed. In both situations, you can also push after 11 starts either by killing the wave or by using all the 1.6k value you'd have sold prior to arena.

TL;DR: So under this rule, you'd have the same push speed as the current rule, but clog less on 15 (less dead value to slow down).

There is also a downside to what you said. The enemy would know that you suicide, hence make you vulnerable to 12-13-14 sends, whereas other team will not know if you sell 200 and push after arena.

I agree on some points but, levels 12 and 13 are easily counterable and to survive 14 you generally need 1 decent holder and a heal manage game. I am not saying this change of rule wouldn't do anything, I am just saying people will adapt quickly since this rule leaves plenty of room for it imo. I would easily accept this rule change if there wasn't that free to sell all part in between 10 and arena. If people wanna suicide and push hard just make them decide to do so pre-10. After 10 no selling to push or to clog, just to build stronger stuff as discussed before and any selling after 10 is easily ruled by mods what it was for.