[DOTA] pinheadlarry

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chrismokvack
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[DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby chrismokvack » Tue Jul 16, 2019 12:49 pm

Replay Link: http://storage.entgaming.net/replay/vie ... 766004.w3g
Game Name: [ENT] DotA apem us/ca #72
Your Warcraft III Username: chrismokvack
Violator's Warcraft III Username: pinheadlarry
Violated Rule(s): refusing to cooperate with team
Time of Violation (in-game or replay): from replay time min 28 and onwards it became obvious he wasn't cooperating, but he really didn't cooperate at all the entire game.
Any further thoughts: he farmed the entire game refused to communicate/cooperate, even though we asked him to come with us several times. He kept jungling during every team fight. A few times he would go alone into enemies but most of the time he stuck to the jungle.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby pinheadlarry » Tue Jul 16, 2019 4:45 pm

Let me clarify my gameplay.

Early game, I actively participated with the team. After a few decisive team fight in our favor and rubiks disconnect. The game was pretty much locked up until if we pushed it to late game. Rather than risk hard fights at T3 tower early game and possible giving up momentum, I opted to farm my 6-slot alch build which is pretty much an auto win. You can see that as soon as I get butterfly, I begin poking at the enemy team.I was looking to catch 2 of them off guard, kill them, and then do a final push. The I only fight with chemical rage as alch as my item build only works during that time. Outside of chemical rage my build is extremely weak. That is why I retreated a few times after team fights, particularly late game.

I did not communicate with blue and oj because it would have just resulted in flaming. They just criticized me all game and kept threatening me so I took the high-ground and did not reply.

Overall, my gameplay certainly had no intent to lose the game. I defend my base when required and certainly had every intention on winning, which I did. Even the enemy team agreed I was helping (notice it is after blue's 28 minute time stamp.:


(38:04 / All) dx_vik: looks like some1 is helping

This is just a classic example of 2 teammates that get angry when you don't play exactly like they want. Instead of being thankful for the win I secured for them by farming a fast 6-slot, they get angry and threatening.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby chrismokvack » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:23 pm

The game was not locked up! We were raxing without you but had to pay for it with many casualties. We were winning without you. You didn't contribute anything whatsoever in the end game so all your farm was worth nothing. Yes, you made some kills near the end but we had already secured the win by then.

You "poked" at the enemy team by taking them on alone. The only reason you made a kill there instead of feeding them was because I ran there as fast as I could to save you.

If you're going to play unconventional strategies it's essential that you communicate! To us it looked like you were throwing the game on purpose. At least make your intentions clear.

Yes I criticized you for lack of team play, and rightly so. Yes I threatened to report you. That was after we had already asked you several times to cooperate and you didn't respond. I thought perhaps doing so might prompt you to start communicating and if not so at least it would be fair let you know. Why would this make you think I would flame you?

In truth I would have been as unhappy with your explanation in game as I am reading it now. I would probably uttered some well chosen words to show my dissatisfaction, but I'm certainly not an excessive flamer.

At least try to communicate. If communication derails there is !ignore command.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby pinheadlarry » Tue Jul 16, 2019 7:47 pm

chrismokvack wrote:The game was not locked up!



chrismokvack wrote: Yes, you made some kills near the end but we had already secured the win by then.


You get to pick one. Either the game was locked up and secured, or it wasn't. You contradicted yourself.

chrismokvack wrote: You didn't contribute anything whatsoever in the end game so all your farm was worth nothing.


Well considering if you look at my K+A=11, which is tied to yellows and only one less than oj's. Clearly I contributed about equally to over half the team. I only got 2 kills at after our last rax push so I clearly did most of my contributions before (contrary to your argument).


chrismokvack wrote:If you're going to play unconventional strategies it's essential that you communicate!


This is anything but an unconventional strategy. It is a sure win. My exodia alch build is an auto win as long as I get all 6 pieces. Which I did, and here comes the big surprise: we won! If you play alch, you might notice he has a really cool skill called goblins greed. It allows him to farm at a stupidly fast rate. Not farming with alch would be an unconventional strategy...

chrismokvack wrote:At least make your intentions clear.


You needed couldn't tell I was farming for 6-slot? You can't be that dense...

chrismokvack wrote:That was after we had already asked you several times to cooperate and you didn't respond.


Dazdaz was the one who asked and then immediately QQed and typed !ff and tried to !vk me so I wrote him off right away. Then you chimed in but teal said

(29:47 / Allied) DazDaz: kick him
(29:49 / Allied) DazDaz: !s pit
(29:52 / Allied) DazDaz: !sd pit
(29:59 / Allied) Der_Uckel: nah we could need him

So I assumed teal understood and valued what i was doing and supported my strategy.

Then you threated a ban which is a really un-teamlike thing to do. You are baisically saying if I don't play exactly how YOU want, that it won't be acceptable.

Here is a lesson in tone:

Try, "hey alch, how much more farm time do you need" or "Hey alch, when can we push" Or "hey alch how do you want to win this"

Those are inviting for team-dialogue rather than "hey alch do what I say or you get banned"

So you got ignored by me just like dazdaz.

chrismokvack wrote:In truth I would have been as unhappy with your explanation in game as I am reading it now. I would probably uttered some well chosen words to show my dissatisfaction, but I'm certainly not an excessive flamer.



I refuse to participate in any amount of flame and you indicated you would of (not excessively) but to some degree. Therefore you validate my reason to withhold engaging with you.

We won bud. Maybe try out some appreciation for once?

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby xSAINTx1 » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:11 pm

To be honest, alchemist is pretty abysmal in the late game. You don't even have bkb. Any decent team would hex you (breaks evasion from bfly) or chain stun you and you would die in literally 2 seconds. You're build is glass cannon as fuck and I would be triggered too if an alche was afk for 30 mins farming for items that make him irrelevant when enemy carries catch up in farm. See like antimage and naga siren, alchemist wins games by being 2-3 items ahead of the enemy because of how fast they farm. When the playing field is equal, these heroes are dogshit when fighting up against Hard carries.

Just work on playing with your team more man. Many seem to be reporting you for your same antics over and over. You seem to be braindead to the concept of ending the game when you should vs taking the risk of throwing because you need your Exodia build (which again, is fucking dogshit vs any team with stun and detection). Troll, slark, silencer with hex, terroblade, sniper, spec, tinker, arc warden, shadow fiend, leshrac, etc could all kill alche 1v1.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby pinheadlarry » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:16 pm

xSAINTx1 wrote:To be honest, alchemist is pretty abysmal in the late game.


Alch is all about the pop-and-drop. I play and build him to win against any 2 vs me combo (other than tiny - that f-ing passive stun). If you drop 2 enemy heros, it should be an easy 4 v 3 push (-1 for me since after 2 heros chemical rage is almost out so I have to back for its CD).

xSAINTx1 wrote:Just work on playing with your team more man.

You can help your team indirectly to. Dropping 2 enemies solo is still helping your team. As you stated, a team with a bunch of stuns/disable is my build's weakness, that makes me weak in 5 v 5 situations. What I aim to do is lother-->stun --> waste one hero so fast the other can barely react --> drop the abyssal hammer, and waster the other, then run like a little bitch out of trouble. This tactic stay very effective even into late game with the only crux being tanks can sometime build in a way that take more then my 4 sec stun to kill.

xSAINTx1 wrote:Troll, slark, silencer with hex, terroblade, sniper, spec, tinker, arc warden, shadow fiend, leshrac, etc could all kill alche 1v1.


Sure, but not if I get the jump on them then I'll waste them before they even know what is happening.

xSAINTx1 wrote: See like antimage and naga siren, alchemist wins games by being 2-3 items ahead of the enemy because of how fast they farm.
.

And if look at the replay, you'll see I exactly did that. When the game ended I was 6-slotted and most of the enemies were still 2 final items behind despite having leaver gold.

And rather than getting a BKB, if a team holds hands all game then I'll just play douche BD gay boi and wreck their other 2 lanes and force them to split or I'll mow their towers down way faster than they can push 5 v 4.

Just because I don't hold hands doesn't mean I don't help the team. To the people that have the braile eyes of the Banter Boi, there logic is if I am not with the team I am not helping. Fact of the matter is I am winning the game for them behind the seen.

xSAINTx1 wrote:Many seem to be reporting you for your same antics over and over.


I know and it is getting ridiculous. I must have the record for the most bans in games where my team wins because dense mods can't appreciate an alternative winning strategy. I've probably been banned more in games I've won than I've lost because butthurt teammates (e.g. aimskjizz) feel offended that I refuse to jeopardize a guaranteed win (which I provide for them) in order to subsidize their k/d. The amount of times I have to explain the reasoning behind my alch gameplay is starting to make me feel like a pharmacist trying to explain why vaccines are important to the Amish.

The thing that pisses me off the most is I continually have to divulge this secret in a usually futile attempt to stave off a unwarranted ban. I've been wrecked in 3 games now by enemy players who have copied my trademark build.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby Sylvanas » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:25 pm

Can you explain why you absolutely need 6 items for your build to work? You keep saying it doesn't work until you get all 6. What doesn't work? What specifically happens when you get the sixth that wasn't already possible when you had "only" 5 with a farm advantage against your opponents who presumably didn't have the luxury of farming all game up to that point? Troll and other heroes like slark or sylla can also be built around attack speed and bashes/procs, and yet I've seen them played successfully both with full and partial inventories. What makes your alchemist different? Knowing it "doesn't work" with less than 6 items, why do you still deliberately choose to always stick to that hero and build when others have proven to be effective and adaptable at all stages of the game?

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby pinheadlarry » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:52 pm

Sylvanas wrote:Can you explain why you absolutely need 6 items for your build to work? You keep saying it doesn't work until you get all 6. What doesn't work? What specifically happens when you get the sixth that wasn't already possible when you had "only" 5 with a farm advantage against your opponents who presumably didn't have the luxury of farming all game up to that point? Troll and other heroes like slark or sylla can also be built around attack speed and bashes/procs, and yet I've seen them played successfully both with full and partial inventories. What makes your alchemist different? Knowing it "doesn't work" with less than 6 items, why do you still deliberately choose to always stick to that hero and build when others have proven to be effective and adaptable at all stages of the game?


Well the astute Saint already answered that.

xSAINTx1 wrote:See like antimage and naga siren, alchemist wins games by being 2-3 items ahead of the enemy because of how fast they farm. When the playing field is equal, these heroes are dogshit when fighting up against Hard carries.


Farming with alch starts off slow since he doesn't have a great farming passive like niax or lycan. Therefore at best it usually takes 25 mins to get boots, lothers, moj and AC. At that point you are only about 1 item ahead. Then next 8-10 mins is all I need to get my 2 final items and put me about 2-3 items ahead since the first 2 items drastically help with farm speed. To leave the jungle at 25 mins would be such a waste since I would forgo my ultimate period (35-55 minutes) where I can easily win the game. Yet it is those last 8-10 minutes that cause the most controversy and raging teammates (e.g. the ban request at hand)

Sylvanas wrote:why do you still deliberately choose to always stick to that hero and build when others have proven to be effective and adaptable at all stages of the game?


I will agree it is a very unforgiving build in that it does not allow for much adaptation making it a bit of a 1 trick pony and if you get chased out of the jungle early game, your pretty much forced into mediocrity for the rest of the game with a high chance of a loss. However, just because it isn't adaptable, doesn't make it a gameruining build. And it has an unbelievably high win rate when it works.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby Sylvanas » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:23 am

You didn't answer. You didn't say you need a farm advantage (which is true), you said you need a full inventory or nothing. This is what you've said countless times at every opportunity since forever, and your games and ban requests reflect that. I didn't watch this game, but like in many of these ban requests, it sounds like the rest of your team had the upper edge and just needed you (or anyone playing any hero) to help them end, but you refused until you finished getting all your items. Concretely, why do you absolutely need a full 6 items inventory to join your team? What happens between the fifth and sixth item that makes alch go from nonfunctional to unbeatable and justifies your refusal to ever help your team before then?

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby xSAINTx1 » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:47 am

I recommend leveling ur gas to 4 by lvl 7 and stacking the small camp when possible. Having lvl 7 gas, and 2 greevil's let's you clear camps faster, thus allowing you to shove the wave faster to retreat to the woods to continue banking from passive, as well as clear stacks faster, letting you get more camps and go back to the wave (vice versa). Small camps are the best to stack because the passive works from creeps killed, rather then level of creep killed; more is better then the type of creep. Also, get maelstrom first because you farm faster, you don't need lothar first. In between finishing camps, run back at 52 seconds before each minute, and keep stacking. You should be 5-6 slotted by 30 mins and have taken rosh solo. I have tried your build (without butterfly, i got blink skadi instead) without radiance, and can still get 6 slot very fast, and end game quickly. With this in mind, I also played solo for 25 mins straight, or got solo pick offs with blink/shoved waves alone. You should work on your farming speed.

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby pinheadlarry » Wed Jul 17, 2019 12:59 am

Sylvanas wrote:You didn't answer. You didn't say you need a farm advantage (which is true), you said you need a full inventory or nothing.


Would it help if I retype everything a 2nd time? Lets try.

-We agree alch needs farm

-Alch has a slow farm start

-Farm rate ramps with items

-Alch wins by the hit-n-run strategy or by pretending alch lives in San Francisco and aiming for the backdoor whenever possible

-Exodia alch build does not work well in 5 v 5 fights. AOE disables = lu garrix disease for Exodia Alch. Its goal is to pick off alone bois and give the 4v3 advantage to your team while providing a large time for distraction.

-Without item 5 (abysall) alch will struggle to perform the necessary 2 v me kills. If I only kill one and chemical rage runs out, I make it a 4 v 4 push for my team since I am in CD and that is not really an advantage in most circumstances (unless I take out the fed carry).

-The last item butterfly is critical if "things go bad" the evasion typically goes a long way while putting your DPS over the top for easy 2-4 second enemy kills.

-If your are missing either piece your probability of a win goes down by hugely from 100% if u early 6-slot. Why risk putting off a guaranteed win? To me not getting the guaranteed win when you have the chance is purely foolish. Sure an extra 4 second stun or acid spray MIGHT win the game earlier, but why take that unnecessary risk? Are people really that impatient that they can't wait an extra 10 mins for a free win? People will spend 30 mins leaving dota lobbies until they get a favorable stack, yet, they can't stand 10 minutes when in a game?

Sylvanas wrote:makes alch go from nonfunctional to unbeatable and justifies your refusal to ever help your team before then?

I only avoid pushing until I lock up the win. I absolutely help my team defend when necessary.

My great example of how my exodia alch build commands the flow of all games is this one. Late game jugg buys a divine and has a gem. I saw this as a threat and single handedly destroyed him. I then protected the gem and devine and let pit lord take him to up our odds of winning. And people say Pinheadlarry doesn't teamplay? Its amazing how people overlook these details and try to say I ruined (e.g. 28 mins onward like the OP said)

So was that bite-sized enough for you syphanus? Next time I can try to reduce the letter length of my words if that might be easier?

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby pinheadlarry » Wed Jul 17, 2019 1:27 am

xSAINTx1 wrote:I recommend leveling ur gas to 4 by lvl 7 and stacking the small camp when possible. Having lvl 7 gas, and 2 greevil's let's you clear camps faster, thus allowing you to shove the wave faster to retreat to the woods to continue banking from passive, as well as clear stacks faster, letting you get more camps and go back to the wave (vice versa). Small camps are the best to stack because the passive works from creeps killed, rather then level of creep killed; more is better then the type of creep. Also, get maelstrom first because you farm faster, you don't need lothar first. In between finishing camps, run back at 52 seconds before each minute, and keep stacking. You should be 5-6 slotted by 30 mins and have taken rosh solo. I have tried your build (without butterfly, i got blink skadi instead) without radiance, and can still get 6 slot very fast, and end game quickly, or got solo pick offs with blink/shoved waves alone. You should work on your farming speed.


I'm torn on leveling the gas... Really depends on the lane. If I have an easy lane, I can easily last hit my way up to the goblins greed. I agree in a harassy lane gas goes a long way. Overall, I find we might be talking about 1-2 mins gain from either strategy. It is not super statistically different from my experience.

Stacking creeps is an interesting idea. I wonder though if losing lane experience might be detrimental. Lev 6 lets you start the jungle farm clock. Alch is kinda weird, levels are important early where as items are important later for farm speed. Each ult level makes item exponentially more important.

But blink costs you 30AS (and a wee bit of damage) which is huge dps on alch (assuming that was the trade for loth). Early loth is more of a defensive item for me early game. Invis I find saves your bacon if you get harassed in the jungle. I agree mael is faster farming item than loth, but I just manage risks by getting loth so I reduce deaths. Swapping butter for skadi is another big AS loss. I find with my build that I kill them so fast that HP and freezing would be useless, and I am a skadi lover which I go on most my hero builds.

In a un-harassed game, I can be 6-slotted in 33mins so you are a bit faster than me but I'd say each of our build has trade off. All I know is I win if I get my 6-slot in good time, so realistically I'd only be sparing myself of 3-4mins of teammates raging at me, with a win regardless. lol. I can see how your build might have its place too based on how the other team builds. I've just always been more of a lothers lad then a blink boi.

xSAINTx1 wrote:I have tried your build (without butterfly, i got blink skadi instead) without radiance, and can still get 6 slot very fast, and end game quickly. With this in mind, I also played solo for 25 mins straight, or got solo pick offs with blink/shoved waves alone.


Did you get a ban request submitted against you for "solo play"? You are the first person since Beerlord that actually seems to understand the logic behind exodia alch. I like how rad bear was allowed for years which was a >50% loss, yet this exodia alch-build is essentially banned because it doesn't conform to "conventional teamplay".

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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby artifacts » Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:47 am

People throw the term "AFK farm" around like nothing..which needs to be renamed, because you cant obviously be "Away From Keyboard" and farm jungle at the same time..Ive lost plenty of games to your late game Alch..it works really well just about every time...but people get so offended by anything these days, they "black list" you or submit for BRQ.
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Re: [DOTA] pinheadlarry

Postby Merex » Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:00 am

Banned 20 days.

5th offense.
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