"dodging"

[iightfyre]

players should be allowed to say "oh i have to go", or "don't feel like playing this game" without getting punished before the game even starts, as we can just remake in like 30 seconds.

1) A player needs to be aware that when he/she types !sign; in effect, the game is starting. There is no tolerence for players to say "oh I have to go" on lvl 1, 3, 15, 24, etc. in game; so why should we tolerate players saying that after they sign? If you type !sign you are in essence agreeing that you are ready to play and have approx 1 hour to spare to complete the game. Period. !signing into a game isn't an action that says "maybe I will play". It say's "I'm ready to play".

2) Why should players be allowed to say "I don't feel like playing this game."? The only reason that would cause this is that the player doesn't like the teams. Otherwise, why would they !sign? If you don't feel like playing with the people who are in the in chat room.. then don't !sign. Easy.

Edit:
Addition ->
Also, the signing process is already too lenient in my opinion. The other day it took us 1 hour to start a game and it was !unhosted twice and sat in limbo in the chat room multiple times as a 3, then a 4, then a 3. Challenge, then no challenge. I do not want to add another variable to the mix.. it's already a pain in the ass sometimes to get a game started.

[eldryan]

2) Why should players be allowed to say "I don't feel like playing this game."? The only reason that would cause this is that the player doesn't like the teams. Otherwise, why would they !sign? If you don't feel like playing with the people who are in the in chat room.. then don't !sign. Easy.

Edit:
Addition ->
Also, the signing process is already too lenient in my opinion. The other day it took us 1 hour to start a game and it was !unhosted twice and sat in limbo in the chat room multiple times as a 3, then a 4, then a 3. Challenge, then no challenge. I do not want to add another variable to the mix.. it's already a pain in the ass sometimes to get a game started.

If they don't like the teams, that's a more then valid reason. Why say "Play on, your fault for not predicting this person would ninja sign!" If players don't have confidence in their team, they shouldn't be playing with that team. Yes, dodging is possible like this.... but anyone who has ever pushed ELO knows how to dodge bad teams anyways. \

Anyways, this is more then just annoying - it's a flaw in principle. Faith in the players, and less overly large and unnecessary rules make a much better environment for playing. This rule is purely unnecessary, creating bans for players who pretend to be afk because they don't like their teams and wasting everyone's time, when it's no real issue to swap someone out and rebalance teams.

Getting the game started is faster when people aren't constantly afraid of signing because they don't know teams, and all want to be the last one to sign.

Edit: Why should players be allowed to say "I don't feel like playing this game."? - This is the mentality I vehemently disagree with. Why SHOULDN'T players be allowed to do it - if there isn't a compelling reason it's stupid to make the rule.

[iightfyre]

@eldryan

I had a really long response to you set up, but I'm tired of arguing this topic with you so I will sum it up in three main points and a conclusion to make it easy to understand the main topics at hand in this discussion.

1) The LIHL was created with an A-Bal system for two reasons. (a) To balance ELO and (b) To prevent "dodging"

2) The problem with "not wanting to play with certain people" lies in the vouching and unvouching procedures, not in the !signing process. Trim the weak players the correct way; not vouching them to begin with, or posting a request for unvouch.

3) If you want to choose your team, you can use the !challenge function. It works, and has been there for a while.

Please drop this topic. The league was founded with A-Bal, a vouching system and a !sign OR !challenge option. These are the backbones of the entire league and will not change.

[Krayyzie]

agree with last post, the whole autobalance team by elo is a main part of this league, otherwise you might aswell just play tourmanents, since if autobalance was removed, half people would only play in team with people they like, and if 2 "teams" arent online at the same time, there would be no games at all hosted.

There is a nice change that would be possible to get rid of people "sit out of games" the way eld describes, only problem with this is there wouldnt enough confidence that this wouldnt be abused by the ones in control. But making elos invisisble to make sure people doesnt pick their teams, that would increase games start by quite alot most likely, atleast 2s and 3s.

As it works now ALOT of players are not signing up for those games because they dont like the team they get, or because they will loose a few more elo if they loose, the whole idea with elo is to get the best players at top, based on their win/loose stats with random teams.
By removing the possibilities to check elo, people wouldnt be able to decide which games they play depending on how much elo they gain or by which teams they get, and it would Also have the positive effect that people do play games at end of season instead of sitting out because they want to keep their spot on the rankings...

[eldryan]

I do not care about teams. I am talking about if people don't want to play for any reason, it is unreasonable to say "No you signed. You have to play now or we will accuse you of dodging." If the whole league is high-level and balanced then sitting is definitively NOT DODGING as both teams are obviously balanced and what you call "dodging" is merely a personal preference of teams and a neutral action.

@krayzie I don't want to remove A-Bal. If ELO is a true reflection of LTD level, there is no such thing as "dodging" as each team is properly balanced by A-Bal. Unfortunately, @iightfyre doesn't believe A-BAL works (which is concerning, as he belives it's the backbone of the league) and thus accuses people of dodging to exploit the unfair teams made by the balance(?). This is a problem in the balancing method/ELO, however, not an issue with !signing and joining.

This whole "the league was founded on these three things" is a pretty stupid comment to make in a thread titled "dodging".

!Sign was put in so that people could play games at the same time as they "wait in lobby".

A-Bal was put in so that players wouldn't manipulate the ELO system. If the A-Bal is already broken to an extent that "dodging" is helpful, then the system is already broken regardless of whether you are intentionally exploiting it.

Vouch was put in place to ensure a high standard of players regardless of ELO manipulation in ENT18.

None of these three things is applicable to this discussion..

If A-BAL works properly there is no "dodging". There is no reason to ban someone sitting out a game.

Edit for Bolding.

[supersexyy]

Aren't you bored of kicking up dirt? Your resilience is impressive..

[eldryan]

Aren't you bored of kicking up dirt? Your resilience is impressive..

I'm annoyed at people not signing because they want to check teams before signing, and then other people not signing because not enough players have joined so they might as well just go ent31, then chain-effect happening to create 0 games...

The irony in your comment is potent. Do you even contribute...ever?

[iightfyre]

Eldyran.. Seriously man.. you are all over the board and you are not only contradicting yourself but you are make false statements and it seems to be that you are fighting a one man battle. And for good reason, you are completely off your rocker in this whole thread.

1)
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I'm annoyed at people not signing because they want to check teams before signing

players should be allowed to say "don't feel like playing this game" without getting punished before the game even starts

So you think that players should have a right to not play with certain people, but yet you are frustrated that people won't sign because they want to see who is playing.???
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2)
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!Sign was put in so that people could play games at the same time as they "wait in lobby".

(a) What does this even mean? So they can play AT THE SAME TIME as wait? WTF? You can't play and wait... you play, or u wait. Secondly.. the !sign function is the ONLY way to start a game..
(b) !sign wasn't "put in so people can wait in lobby" .. it is the command that tells the bot when to host a game... When you type !sign you are effectively putting yourself into a virtual game lobby instead of a chat room.. And for the LIHL bot, once the spots are filled and the game is HOSTED - it is seen as the START OF THE GAME. You have plenty of opportunities to not join the game prior to it being hosted.
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3)
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If players don't have confidence in their team, they shouldn't be playing with that team.

You wrote this. So i responded by saying that if you don't have confidence in players, you need to fix the vouch and unvouch process...

Vouch was put in place to ensure a high standard of players regardless of ELO manipulation in ENT18.

You seem to agree with me.. vouching is the way to ensure high quality players.. Then why the hell are you trying to argue that you have a right to not have confidence in your team and thus not play it?
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4) Your statement is the stupid one. You say "These three things aren't applicable to the the topic.

This whole "the league was founded on these three things" is a pretty stupid comment to make in a thread titled "dodging".
None of these three things is applicable to this discussion..

Yet this is what you claim are the 3 things that I was saying:

!Sign was put in so that people could play games at the same time as they "wait in lobby".

A-Bal was put in so that players wouldn't manipulate the ELO system. If the A-Bal is already broken to an extent that "dodging" is helpful, then the system is already broken regardless of whether you are intentionally exploiting it.

Vouch was put in place to ensure a high standard of players regardless of ELO manipulation in ENT18.

What I said was:

1) The LIHL was created with an A-Bal system for two reasons. (a) To balance ELO and (b) To prevent "dodging"

2) The problem with "not wanting to play with certain people" lies in the vouching and unvouching procedures, not in the !signing process. Trim the weak players the correct way; not vouching them to begin with, or posting a request for unvouch.

3) If you want to choose your team, you can use the !challenge function. It works, and has been there for a while.

You claim the three things are
1 - !sign was put in so players can wait in lobby
2 - A-Bal is broken and is intended to stop manipulation of ELO.
3 - Vouch was put in to ensure high standards of players

What I actually wrote was
1 - !challenge function is available.. (You don't even address this)
2 - A-Bal is to balance ELO and prevent dodging (You claim I said broken and for manipulation)
3 - Vouch was put in to ensure high standards of players (This one you actually got right!! Congrats!)

<>
5)

Unfortunately, @iightfyre doesn't believe A-BAL works (which is concerning, as he belives it's the backbone of the league)

You pulled this out of your ass. If I said anything to make you believe that, please quote me on it. Otherwise, stop making false assumptions and putting words in my mouth.
<>

I'm done arguing with you, Eld. Clearly you cannot read and interperate properly, and I am tired of trying to explain things that you simply refuse to see or hear.

I'll make it REAL SIMPLE for you

***When a player types !sign, he/she is agreeing to play a game. He/she should have the appropriate amount of time set aside to play. You can always !unsign before the game is hosted.**

ONCE THE GAME IS HOSTED - IT IS CONSIDERED TO HAVE STARTED.

Please read that last statement as many times as you need to get it into your head. Once it is hosted, it is considered to have started. All rules that apply to a game in progress have now gone into effect. If you don't like that, go make your own league.

[eldryan]

I'm annoyed at people not signing because they want to check teams before signing

players should be allowed to say "don't feel like playing this game" without getting punished before the game even starts

So you think that players should have a right to not play with certain people, but yet you are frustrated that people won't sign because they want to see who is playing.???

!Sign was put in so that people could play games at the same time as they "wait in lobby".

If players don't have confidence in their team, they shouldn't be playing with that team.

You wrote this. So i responded by saying that if you don't have confidence in players, you need to fix the vouch and unvouch process...

Vouch was put in place to ensure a high standard of players regardless of ELO manipulation in ENT18.

You seem to agree with me.. vouching is the way to ensure high quality players.. Then why the hell are you trying to argue that you have a right to not have confidence in your team and thus not play it?

This whole "the league was founded on these three things" is a pretty stupid comment to make in a thread titled "dodging".
None of these three things is applicable to this discussion..

Unfortunately, @iightfyre doesn't believe A-BAL works (which is concerning, as he belives it's the backbone of the league)

You pulled this out of your ass. If I said anything to make you believe that, please quote me on it. Otherwise, stop making false assumptions and putting words in my mouth.

***When a player types !sign, he/she is agreeing to play a game. He/she should have the appropriate amount of time set aside to play. You can always !unsign before the game is hosted.**

ONCE THE GAME IS HOSTED - IT IS CONSIDERED TO HAVE STARTED.

Please read that last statement as many times as you need to get it into your head. Once it is hosted, it is considered to have started. All rules that apply to a game in progress have now gone into effect. If you don't like that, go make your own league.

You literally can't even understand my posts. Your arguments aren't even addressing what I said. Should I even bother reading this essay any further...

Clearly your comprehension level isn't high enough to benefit from a point by point explanation, but for those still reading I might as well spell it out very clearly.

Players wanting to check teams before signing leads to a CHAIN of people not signing, and is thus annoying. Not because they themselves are doing something unsportsmanlike. Please read the whole post instead of focusing on single sentences.

Players teams aren't good or bad based off PLAYER skill, it's based off TEAMSKILL. If none of the players like each other and play together, the team will do worse then a team where all the players are familiar with each other and know how each player prefers to strategize. This is called confidence in YOUR TEAM, not in the PLAYERS ON YOUR TEAM. For example, god.lik3 clearly isn't a terrible player yet I wouldn't want him on my team. And I would imagine vice versa.

You have a five minute grace period after the game starts, and can do whatever the fuck you want while you are signed. Do you know why there's a "!notify"? Because that way, people don't have to be in channel... They can DO SOMETHING.

If A-BAL isn't to prevent manipulation of ELO, then there should be no problem with dodging. I elaborated on this in my post, apparently you can't string together more then one sentence at a time. A-Bal doesn't prevent dodging. Why would people dodge without A-Bal when then they can choose their own teams? Your post didn't make sense. As for balancing ELO, with or without A-BAL elo is pretty balanced in a league where normal players are only separated by a few hundred ELO (1100-900).

If A-BAL works, dodging is impossible, as both teams will always be balanced player-wise. If it doesn't work then dodging can be used to gain an advantage or used for some ulterior motive other then because of the player imbalance. However, if you don't have confidence in your team, you shouldn't have to play with them. It doesn't mean you should ask them to get unvouched from the league, as it might not be anything related to their gaming. Team chemistry differences are a result, normally, of players NOT WANTING TO PLAY WITH THEIR TEAM and thus creating drama with the other players and the fall-out being that two players don't know each other as well as they should. Thus they don't communicate as much, and the team is out of sync. How can we solve this problem?

Challenge mode means TWO PLAYERS choose their teams - half the time those picked don't agree with the teams and there is a "draft winner". Furthermore, before 100 games or so have been played this is exactly the same as stacking. At the beginning of the season, it's fully possible to have a team of ilocos, braveheart, beep, BA, and GoG against 5 noobs for equal/almost equal ELO. However, that's a story for another day.

Lastly, I helped make this league. I applied for my vouched before you, and was vouched at the same time. Half the rules were made via my influence and I've moderated this league. You haven't even played in this league. I would suggest you leave if you can't notice the issues, rather than taking your assumptions and preferences and labeling them "HOW IT IS CONSIDERED" because you wish it.

Jesus, what a pain in the ass to argue with. Now I understand the perspective you've been taking discussing things...

[Dong]

WoW.

[iightfyre]

@eldryan

1) You were removed from being a mod cuz you sucked at it

2) Use !challenge mode and it solves all of your gripes

Edit:

I know you disagree with challenge mode. Frankly, you disagree with everything... always. Just stop crying. It's all you do.

[eldryan]

@eldryan

1) You were removed from being a mod cuz you sucked at it

2) Use !challenge mode and it solves all of your gripes

Edit:

I know you disagree with challenge mode. Frankly, you disagree with everything... always. Just stop crying. It's all you do.

Challenge mode doesn't solve shit.

I was removed from mod because you stirred up a bunch of drama and lied to agreements. Then after that, when I pointed out that these were obviously false and either lies or utterly irresponsible misinforming, I was astonished that they didn't remove you from the team... and refused to work with you. You were the worst mod in LIHL history, and implemented many bad rules that mickiethemousie and others had to spend months correcting. I am still astonished they expected me to "talk it out with you" after this mod abuse.

From the player who dislikes adding ANY rules because they're "not fun" and cried about all new policies from admins while I was trying to fine tune and make suggestions to policies, that's a rich comment.

Congratulations on derailing the thread.

[HealByColor]

Are you done with this post @eldryan ?

[Stealer]

From the player who dislikes adding ANY rules because they're "not fun" and cried about all new policies from admins while I was trying to fine tune and make suggestions to policies, that's a rich comment.

Might want to work on your suggestion making. I don't think anybody saw it that way.

[eldryan]

From the player who dislikes adding ANY rules because they're "not fun" and cried about all new policies from admins while I was trying to fine tune and make suggestions to policies, that's a rich comment.

Might want to work on your suggestion making. I don't think anybody saw it that way.

As everyone directly referred to my comments as "interesting suggestions I've made" I would consider it quite absurd to "work on... suggestion making". I would work on your reading comprehension, however...

@healbycolor this thread is getting too long, but I don't know the current policies on thread-making. So I don't know if I am done. Forum rules changing every time I log on.